something to think about....

[GS78]

The five dead police officers in Lakewood, Washington(yes there was an officer killed in his patrol car on halloween) all were armed, presumably highly trained and wearing body armor. We seem to think that because we carry weapons, either concealed or open, and we go to the range or maybe even hunt, that we are better able to confront an agressive attacker who may be armed. How many of us at this forum really train to be able to respond in a split second to a situation like this one? I know some will say that "nobody can be ready for this kind of situation", maybe not... I can't help but wonder though, after the first officer was shot, how much time was there to react? evidently, from earlier reports one of the officers did react with force even though he was already mortally wounded... I have to admit that though I try to train to be ready for anything , I'm sure these men and women did too....just a thought....( please don't reply with "whens its your time" etc, I never believed in that crap. I'm leaning more towards better profiling myself...

[fireman836]

GS
If someone has the drop on you the fastest person in the world would have a problem surviving. Unholstering a firearm while sitting in a booth with three other officers is difficult to say the least.
Obviously the BG knew what he was going to do and was ready when he walked through the door. Ambush is very hard to deal with when the BG is ready to kill without warning.
I'm thankful the officer that shot the BG was able to do what he/she did. May God bless their souls.

[GS78]

GS
If someone has the drop on you the fastest person in the world would have a problem surviving. Unholstering a firearm while sitting in a booth with three other officers is difficult to say the least.
Obviously the BG knew what he was going to do and was ready when he walked through the door. Ambush is very hard to deal with when the BG is ready to kill without warning.
I'm thankful the officer that shot the BG was able to do what he/she did. May God bless their souls.

I realize this.... I know all about ambush too. I am saying , just maybe in this time of PC nonense, these officers didn't recognize an upset, deranged black male approaching them with his hand(s) in his pocket or 'hoodie' and walking right up to them ...before we had all this no profiling crap, if a scumbag even walked into an establishment frequented by cops, all eyes would have been on him.... ...just sayin if the bad guy walked up to them smiling and joking with the gun still in his pocket then he had to draw also, correct? Im not trying to criticize these police officers in ANY way, I guess what Im saying is when anyone who gives off bad vibes even comes close to me, I always think the worst of them, sometimes, most times I am wrong....politically incorrect and wrong BUT I can live with that.

[jadedone4]

GS
If someone has the drop on you the fastest person in the world would have a problem surviving. Unholstering a firearm while sitting in a booth with three other officers is difficult to say the least.
Obviously the BG knew what he was going to do and was ready when he walked through the door. Ambush is very hard to deal with when the BG is ready to kill without warning.
I'm thankful the officer that shot the BG was able to do what he/she did. May God bless their souls.

I realize this.... I know all about ambush too. I am saying , just maybe in this time of PC nonense, these officers didn't recognize an upset, deranged black male approaching them with his hand(s) in his pocket or 'hoodie' and walking right up to them ...before we had all this no profiling crap, if a scumbag even walked into an establishment frequented by cops, all eyes would have been on him.... ...just sayin if the bad guy walked up to them smiling and joking with the gun still in his pocket then he had to draw also, correct? Im not trying to criticize these police officers in ANY way, I guess what Im saying is when anyone who gives off bad vibes even comes close to me, I always think the worst of them, sometimes, most times I am wrong....politically incorrect and wrong BUT I can live with that.

a. if the BG has intent to do harm, more often than not, the BG will be successful in harming - the levels by which the BG will be able to inflict said harm - is the variable; the fact that the BG wants/desires, will and can achieve harm is a constant - one put into play by the BG and undisclosed until the second(s) that the instrument of harm is produced.

b. your post(s) "assumes" certain elements and presents them as facts; the cops were "highly-trained" (most non-tactical unit officers do not train with their weapons anymore/less than a civilian owner); situational-awarness, while always necessary, does not always clearly identify threats (good example; WashDC, Holoucaust Museum shooter = white male, public area, more cops "at-ready" as this was security check-point, etc); profiling does not work - you would be surprised how ineffective the practice is versus the "hype" of what folks like to believe. If you are predisposed to believing that particular "group" is negative, then your beliefs will always find "something wrong" with them to then assert/justify your position. I am sure that any "scumbag" appropriately dressed and acting in manner - would have raised the antennae of the officers and the everyone in the place (but what about they guy just getting a cup of Joe/doughnut who is dressed as you are this AM - should he be deemed a threat...?)

This horrible incident was the act of a Black Man who had a gun, who wanted to do harm to cops, who had been in/out of the criminal justice system, who (and not a direct quote as fact here) had no legal means to obtain and/or posess a firearm and from what I can tell - had a death-wish.

He "ambushed" the cops - that was the means/method of his violence, but his intent was greater... sadly, much, much greater (in my book the same as "jihad" either via a mental defect of "wiring" or one of indoctrination).

[JamesA]

When the bg. has the drop of you, not a heck of lot you can do. All the training in the world not much good at the moment. You can however be aware of your surroundings at all times. Take my back means just that.

[zephyp]

When the bg. has the drop of you, not a heck of lot you can do. All the training in the world not much good at the moment. You can however be aware of your surroundings at all times. Take my back means just that.

SA (situational awareness) is a key element in our arsenal. I like to call it paranoia...

[wylde007]

It's kept me alive this long.

I don't intend on becoming an Eloi anytime soon.

[BluemontGlock]

SA. period .

...always, all the time....

[VBshooter]

Amen to that sentiment also!!

[CCFan]

I like to call it paranoia...

It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.... whether you in particular or randomly, there are bad folks out there.

God bless the fallen and their families...

[SgtBill]

When the bg. has the drop of you, not a heck of lot you can do. All the training in the world not much good at the moment. You can however be aware of your surroundings at all times. Take my back means just that.

SA (situational awareness) is a key element in our arsenal. I like to call it paranoia...

After manny years of living with situational awareness while living and working in Atlantic City N.J. and training every mounth with the SWAT team for 22 years I still stay aware of what is going on around me. I am slowing down some in my old age (63) but this is mostly caused by medical problems. I can still move pretty fast for disarming teckniques. Ask DK.
Bill

[SgtBill]

If you remember DK I told you that when I met my daughters boyfriend for the first time I asked him if he knew what no meant and he said yes. I then told him that he was too big for me to beat but that I could still six in his chest from my .357.
Bill

[GS78]

GS
If someone has the drop on you the fastest person in the world would have a problem surviving. Unholstering a firearm while sitting in a booth with three other officers is difficult to say the least.
Obviously the BG knew what he was going to do and was ready when he walked through the door. Ambush is very hard to deal with when the BG is ready to kill without warning.
I'm thankful the officer that shot the BG was able to do what he/she did. May God bless their souls.

I realize this.... I know all about ambush too. I am saying , just maybe in this time of PC nonense, these officers didn't recognize an upset, deranged black male approaching them with his hand(s) in his pocket or 'hoodie' and walking right up to them ...before we had all this no profiling crap, if a scumbag even walked into an establishment frequented by cops, all eyes would have been on him.... ...just sayin if the bad guy walked up to them smiling and joking with the gun still in his pocket then he had to draw also, correct? Im not trying to criticize these police officers in ANY way, I guess what Im saying is when anyone who gives off bad vibes even comes close to me, I always think the worst of them, sometimes, most times I am wrong....politically incorrect and wrong BUT I can live with that.

a. if the BG has intent to do harm, more often than not, the BG will be successful in harming - the levels by which the BG will be able to inflict said harm - is the variable; the fact that the BG wants/desires, will and can achieve harm is a constant - one put into play by the BG and undisclosed until the second(s) that the instrument of harm is produced.

b. your post(s) "assumes" certain elements and presents them as facts; the cops were "highly-trained" (most non-tactical unit officers do not train with their weapons anymore/less than a civilian owner); situational-awarness, while always necessary, does not always clearly identify threats (good example; WashDC, Holoucaust Museum shooter = white male, public area, more cops "at-ready" as this was security check-point, etc); profiling does not work - you would be surprised how ineffective the practice is versus the "hype" of what folks like to believe. If you are predisposed to believing that particular "group" is negative, then your beliefs will always find "something wrong" with them to then assert/justify your position. I am sure that any "scumbag" appropriately dressed and acting in manner - would have raised the antennae of the officers and the everyone in the place (but what about they guy just getting a cup of Joe/doughnut who is dressed as you are this AM - should he be deemed a threat...?)

This horrible incident was the act of a Black Man who had a gun, who wanted to do harm to cops, who had been in/out of the criminal justice system, who (and not a direct quote as fact here) had no legal means to obtain and/or posess a firearm and from what I can tell - had a death-wish.

He "ambushed" the cops - that was the means/method of his violence, but his intent was greater... sadly, much, much greater (in my book the same as "jihad" either via a mental defect of "wiring" or one of indoctrination).

First, I don't "assume" anything, its makes an ass out of you and me..., I have shot with Deputy Sheriff's Officers, city patrol and Special Weapons and Tactic guys(and now gals) and in my experience I have to say that "profiling " actually does work. I am merely pointing out that with all the PC nonsense being pumped into new recruits at the academy, these young people are losing out on a long standing tradition of using your 'sixth sense' gut reaction, intuition, whatever you want to call it. Ask any cop who lived through an entire career and he will tell you about it. Today the recruits have to learn how to become social workers before they learn how to use deadly force. Someone referred to it as "paranoia", maybe so, I know for a fact and a long standing one that I can and do scan every person within a certain radius of me at all times. Always. Everywhere. If thats the definition of Paranoia then I am guilty, but IF you ever read my name in a newspaper after some kind of 'attack' the word victim will not be referring to me, unless its by a LRRP....... ......'shhhh, what was that?....

[brokengun]

Col. Cooper taught a color coded series of levels of situational awareness.
It was his opinion that these days none of us should spend much time in the green.
He wrote a small but very credible pamphlet size work concerning what he called The Principles of Self Defense.
It is worth reading.
The unchangeable disadvantage which uniformed LEO's suffer is the potential for ambush. This is one major advantage of concealed carry; surprising the perp.

[zephyp]

If you remember DK I told you that when I met my daughters boyfriend for the first time I asked him if he knew what no meant and he said yes. I then told him that he was too big for me to beat but that I could still six in his chest from my .357.
Bill

I do indeed, Bill. I also remember you telling me that my "paranoia" is ok. Your wisdom has saved me grief a couple of times and I do appreciate that. I'm no longer paranoid of being paranoid.

[scampbell3]

Col. Cooper taught a color coded series of levels of situational awareness.
It was his opinion that these days none of us should spend much time in the green.
He wrote a small but very credible pamphlet size work concerning what he called The Principles of Self Defense.
It is worth reading.
The unchangeable disadvantage which uniformed LEO's suffer is the potential for ambush. This is one major advantage of concealed carry; surprising the perp.

I really enjoy reading 'what if...' topics. I believe there are not many people you have not read the works of Col. Cooper, and try to apply levels of situational awareness to their everyday lives, but what good does SA have, when we many not be able to identify what we need to be aware of, or understand the psychology of violence and crime.

Here is a site that I recommend every should visit and read thoroughly.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cr ... rocess.htm

What you think
you know ... will kill you
An old survival maxim

Crime is a Process
by Marc MacYoung & Dianna G. MacYoung
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com

On this page:
The Pretense of Innocence | Process Development | The Importance of Pre-emptive Action

The page quote is common among safety experts. But it applies in spades to avoiding crime and violence. The problem is, most of what you think you know about crime is probably wrong. Or to quote Will Rogers "It ain't that people are ignorant, it's just they know so much that ain't so."

And, when it comes to violence, the biggest source of what 'ain't so' is Hollywood.

What you see in the movies about crime and violence is one of the biggest reasons why you are vulnerable to it. What you see on the screen gives you an utterly false impression about how it occurs. It is this fantasy version that you will be looking for while the real thing walks right up to you. Hollywood's one-dimensional portrayal of 'bad guys' are what most people are looking for -- not the actual danger signals.

Most intelligent people respond to this idea by asserting that they can tell the difference between movies and real life. Unfortunately, in the deepest parts of your brain (often referred to as your lizard or monkey brain) that particular distinction isn't quite as clear as we'd like it to be. To demonstrate this all we need to do is point towards your reaction to movies. If some part of you didn't 'believe' what you see you wouldn't get excited, scared, moved or saddened by movies.

Unfortunately, the part of your brain that believes what it sees on the screen is the same one that is looking for danger signals of an impending attack. It's not hyperbole to say that because they're looking for the cartoon version of danger, the real thing walks right up to them. A whole lot of people who have been mugged would have said "I know what danger looks like" before they discovered the hard way that they were looking for the wrong things. They're shocked when the real thing pops up in front of them demanding their wallet, keys ... or worse.

The good news is that once you know them, the real signals are as obvious as Hollywood's.

The Pretense of Innocence
Another contributing factor why it can be difficult to spot a developing crime is deception. It may come as a shock to you, but criminals lie. Deception is not only a way of life with them, but it is an essential component of crime. They act innocent so as not to give you warning what they are up to. It's not too smart for a bank robber to walk into a bank and declare "I'll be back in a half hour to rob this bank" -- and then shows up a half hour later -- is it?

Hiding what he is up to is major component of any kind of crime. It's only with violent crime that the pretense is dropped early in the process(1). But even then, it's dropped only after he has engaged in deception long enough to develop what he needs to successfully attack you.

It makes sense when you think about it. What are the odds of a robber or rapist announcing his intentions before he has gained control of you or the situation? You'd run away. Or to slowly approach you like a movie bad guy does the hero, oozing evil intent and dripping menace? That would give you time to ready your defenses. (Besides, look how well that approach works out for action movie bad guys. They lose every time.) As it's a hungry lioness that roars to announce that she's setting off on the hunt, it's an unsuccessful criminal that lets you know you're in danger too soon.

Pretending that the situation is something else (all the while developing the components to attack successfully) is pro forma to crime.

Somewhere in the process the criminal is going to pretend that he is innocently going about his business. The most common robbery strategy is the robber to engage you while posing as an innocent (until he attacks). For personal robberies he engages you by asking mundane questions like the time or for directions. For establishment robberies he's acting like a 'customer.'

Although the victim may sense that something is wrong, this pretense of innocence combined with the criminal not acting like a 'movie bad guy' is usually enough to let the criminal achieve his goals. The mixed messages he is 'broadcasting' creates confusion among people who don't know what developing crime looks like. That confusion creates the inaction by his victim that he needs to successfully develop the attack.

Process Development
Until now it probably seems that all the odds are with the criminal. Nothing can be further from the truth. In fact, because of the criminal's goals he is at a disadvantage. The reason we say this is no matter what form of deception he may attempt, his goals ultimately make him more predictable.

And it is that predictability that you can turn against him and ensure your safety.

Imagine if you will driving to a friend's home. At first there are probably many different routes you can take. But the closer to your goal that you get, the more you have to turn down this street, go this far and go to this address. If you don't, you don't arrive where you want to go.

The same idea can be applied to crime. The closer to the commission of the crime, the more predictable the criminal becomes. He has to do certain things in order to achieve his goal.

This is why we say that crime is a process. Certain component parts must be developed in order for a crime to occur. If one is not achieved, the crime will not occur. These components are not only necessary for the crime to occur, but they work together. Affect one and you affect all ... and the crime itself.

One further point must be made about the development of these components. While each of them may exist individually, they don't exist together in the same situation except for the commission of a crime. When you see them all together (or someone trying to assemble them), it's NEVER innocent. And this in spite of any pretense of innocent to cover his actions. The presence (or attempt to develop) these components is the litmus test for danger -- not his deception.

The necessity of these components is what makes the criminal predictable. No matter what your decision on use of force, you can use that predictability against him. Once you know the significance of his actions you can derail the process before it turns violent.

The Importance of Pre-emptive Action
It is often the very normalcy and familiarity of our surrounding that blinds us to significance of signals that pending danger broadcasts. To the victim, it just seems like the violence "came out of nowhere."

In fact, there was plenty of warning, plenty of opportunity to recognize danger signals, dangerous circumstances, but the victim either ignored them, didn't see them or didn't recognize their significance. This is where what you "think" you know about crime and violence will blind you to these danger signals.

We have developed the Five Stages of Violent Crime model to help you identify the actual danger signals of an impending crime (see StreetSafe). Not Hollywood's version. Not a limited model based on fights you might have seen in school, but a broad spectrum of behaviors that tell you someone is developing their attack.

The beauty of the Five Stages system, it gives you an external set of standards to check against someone's behavior. If the collective behavior is present, you are, indeed, in danger and need to take steps to ensure your safety. And you need to do this no matter *what* the person is saying -- since his actions speak louder than his words.

There is no one thing that will tell you you are in danger. This is why the collective checklist is so reliable. A single element might be misconstrued or explained away. However, you will never get the collective presence accidentally. If they are all there, it is intentional.

Once you are aware of these stages they are easily countered by the Pyramid of Personal Safety.

[zephyp]

Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense is indeed an excellent read. He outlines 7 principles (if I remember correctly) to apply in personal defense. It is definitely worth reading. If you own a gun you should also own a copy of that book...