Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

[dorminWS]

Very possible, if you believe the report below:

Clinton (D)- 41%
Trump (R)- 39%
Johnson (L)- 9%
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"Hillary’s media might still be publishing she is at a 16+ point lead on Donald, but the real story is far from that. See what this new poll has to say about it.


The race between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton continues to tighten as it moves further from the conventions, but both candidates are still struggling to close the deal.

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online White House Watch survey of Likely U.S. Voters shows Clinton with 41% support to Trump’s 39%. Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson picks up nine percent (9%) of the vote, while Green Party nominee Jill Stein trails with three percent (3%). Three percent (3%) like some other candidate, and five percent (5%) are undecided. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

Trump has been steadily losing ground since mid-July when his support peaked at 44%, while this is the second week in a row that Clinton’s support has fallen from an identical 44% just after the Democratic National Convention. Clinton held a 43% to 40% edge over Trump last week.

Clinton continues to earn more support among voters in her party (77%) than Trump does in his (69%), but support is down from last week in both parties. Trump still leads Clinton 38% to 29% among voters not affiliated with either major party.

Johnson has 11% GOP support, four percent (4%) of the Democratic vote and 12% of unaffiliated voters. Stein’s support among Republicans is at a statistical zero, and she picks up just one percent (1%) support from Democrats and eight percent (8%) from unaffiliateds.

(Want a free daily e-mail update? If it’s in the news, it’s in our polls). Rasmussen Reports updates are also available on Twitter or Facebook.

The survey of 1,000 Likely Voters was conducted on August 15-16, 2016 by Rasmussen Reports. The margin of sampling error is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence. Field work for all Rasmussen Reports surveys is conducted by Pulse Opinion Research, LLC. See methodology.

Both Clinton and Trump continue to have a trust problem among voters.

Clinton now holds just a 43% to 39% edge over Trump among women. The race is even closer among men: 40% support Clinton, while 39% back Trump."

[Reverenddel]

I dunno, alot of Johnson's supporters aren't republican, but DEMOCRATS who liked Bernie.

[trailrunner]

Blaming the libertarians is denying the failure of the Republican party.

[Swampman]

^^^^This!

[ShotgunBlast]

The scapegoats are starting. Johnson polls well with Bernie supporters and with people under 35 - two demographics that aren't likely to pull the lever for Trump in November.

This whole article reminds me of the VA GOP co-chair saying that any Republican that doesn't vote for Trump is a traitor. 1. I thought it was the Democratic party that had the whole "get in line sheep" mentality, not Republicans and 2. as noted above, the scapegoat mentality applies zero blame to the losing candidate.

If Trump loses, it's no one's fault but Trump's.

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[SHMIV]

This commentary by Tammy Bruce is semi-relevant:

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/ ... -liberals/

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Considering the way that, every day, it seems that something that Trump said gets taken grossly out of context, and plastered all over every type of media, I'd say Trump is doing fairly well.

"If you give me six lines written by the most honest man, I will find something in them with which to hang him." - attributed to Cardinal Richelieu

It doesn't matter what Trump says or does, he's going to be misrepresented, regardless.

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[dorminWS]

I dunno, alot of Johnson's supporters aren't republican, but DEMOCRATS who liked Bernie.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You didn't read it all, Rev:

"Johnson has 11% GOP support, four percent (4%) of the Democratic vote and 12% of unaffiliated voters."

If that's right, it's much more likely to sink Trump, not Hillary.

[dorminWS]

Scapegoat, my ass!

It's almost surely a close election and any not-trump vote puts Hillary closer to the White House.

If that happens, republicans, conservatives, Reagan democrats and libertarians are ALL screwed, and the country will NEVER recover. A socialist/liberal SCOTUS WILL eviscerate the second Amendment and all other Constitutional obstacles to socialist totalitarianism and liberty will cease to even a cherished memory. The electorate will be rigged so that the Clinton Dynasty will be hereditary. (if it isn't already) None of the above can AFFORD to vote/not vote on principal. They better all vote for the lesser of two evils, like I intend to. By all means, punish the republican establishment for their sins; but wait and do it when it won't punish the rest of us, too. Matter of fact, a Trump Presidency would be a pretty good start on punishing the bastards if you ask me.

[trailrunner]

By all means, punish the republican establishment for their sins; but wait and do it when it won't punish the rest of us, too.

Yeah, yeah. I heard that when McAuliffe was elected.

Exactly how long are we supposed to wait for the Republican party to get their act together?

How long will the Republican campaign slogan be: "no matter how bad our candidate is, it will be worse if the Democrat is elected!"?

[ShotgunBlast]

Wow, a sales pitch based on fear and a call for abandoning your principles. Republicans are sounding more like Democrats everyday.

As for the Republican's slogan of "vote for us because at least we're not the other guy," it goes back farther than T-Mac.

1988: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
1992: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
1996: Vote for Dole and we'll fix it next election.
2000: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
2004: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
2008: Vote for McCain and we'll fix it next election.
2012: Vote for Romney and we'll fix it next election.
2016: Vote for Trump and we'll fix it next election.

You know what the definition of insanity is, right?

[SHMIV]

If the polls are to be believed (I'm not certain that they are, but for the sake of argument...), then the Libertarians could, in fact, be responsible for Hillary becoming the Queen Witch of the White House. I truly cannot fathom why anyone would want to take that chance.

As far the Republican party, most of the familiar faces of the party (and most of them being faces that we grew weary of seeing, ages ago) seem to be leading the whole anti-Trump campaign. So, I don't know who anyone thinks that they'll be "sticking it" to by not voting for Trump, but it sure as hell ain't Republican, Inc. Sorry, a bunch of trolls registered as Republicans, nominated Trump, and already stuck it to the GOP. A vote for Gary Johnson, aside from being a vote for Hillary, will only be salve on the wound. Sure, Hillary will be in the White House, but business will proceed as usual, and that's what really matters, anyway.

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This is not a matter of "the lesser of two evils". To say that, assumes that Trump is evil. He's not.

We have a "far from perfect" candidate. He's wrong about alot, and questionable on alot more. But, he is absolutely correct on border issues. The other 3 are wrong, and fatally so.

Hillary is the evil candidate. I doubt many, if any, would argue that, here, so I'll leave it there.

Johnson is well meaning, but an idiot. He's wrong on the border. I might extend him some grace on that, had he been born and raised in, and governed a state like North Dakota, but he governed New Mexico. He really should know better. It makes me wonder if he ever actually took notice of his charge. Plus, he's got no realistic chance of winning. He's a pipe dream. Unless you're part of the Hillary camp. Then he's another kind of dream.

Then there is Jill Stein. I'm feeling charitable, so I mention her. She might be useful for sapping a few of Hillarys votes, but I think she lost her brain in a bong somewhere around 1978.

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I've met more than a few scapegoats that were fully justified in that position.

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[kelu]

You know, maybe a cold shower is required for all gun owners that sit on their asses, thinking that nothing can happen.
When did you lost the right to make your own shine, while ex-communists still have it? Step by step, one by one, you lose them.
If you can't keep, appreciate and fight for your rights, you deserve to lose them.

[GregVa]

Just need everyone to vote with 2a in mind.. the big thing is hoping we can keep a majority of the house and senate so we can impeach another clinton if she does make it that far.

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[SHMIV]

You bring up an interesting point, Greg. I've long held that Congress doesn't get near the attention that it should have, come election time. I would argue that Congress is more important than the President, as they are the ones who actually draft laws. And, even though they haven't really used the power much in my lifetime, they are supposed to keep the President in check.

Part of the problem is the popular, but incorrect, notion that the President is our leader. He's the leader of the military, being Commander in Chief, but outside of that, he's just a representative. We are a nation of free people (at least, we are supposed to be), as such, we lead ourselves.

One of the things that I like about Trump, is he speaks in broad terms. For the most part, that's all he needs. I don't want a President to have too detailed a plan; that's not his job. The details are up to Congress, theoretically to be directed by We The People.

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[WRW]

You bring up an interesting point, Greg. I've long held that Congress doesn't get near the attention that it should have, come election time. I would argue that Congress is more important than the President, as they are the ones who actually draft laws. And, even though they haven't really used the power much in my lifetime, they are supposed to keep the President in check.

Part of the problem is the popular, but incorrect, notion that the President is our leader. He's the leader of the military, being Commander in Chief, but outside of that, he's just a representative. We are a nation of free people (at least, we are supposed to be), as such, we lead ourselves.

One of the things that I like about Trump, is he speaks in broad terms. For the most part, that's all he needs. I don't want a President to have too detailed a plan; that's not his job. The details are up to Congress, theoretically to be directed by We The People.

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Yes, and Congress should have been left with popular elections of Representatives and State elections of Senators. The Senate was the insulation from populist reform du jour for good reason.

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[mamabearCali]

You know I'd respect these third parties a heck of a lot more if they actually were what they claimed to be. Johnson is a horrible example of a libertarian. If we had a real libertarian I might be tempted to vote for him. As it stands what they did to VA by running a faux libertarian in the governors race they are now trying on the nation as a whole.

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[GregVa]

Exactly .. just hope we keep the majorities in the house and senate. So even if you wont vote for trump we need to get out and vote for all the Republicans on the ticket .. holding the house and senate is key in blocking any dumb stuff hillary wants to do.

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[Viper21]

Wow, a sales pitch based on fear and a call for abandoning your principles. Republicans are sounding more like Democrats everyday.

As for the Republican's slogan of "vote for us because at least we're not the other guy," it goes back farther than T-Mac.

1988: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
1992: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
1996: Vote for Dole and we'll fix it next election.
2000: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
2004: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
2008: Vote for McCain and we'll fix it next election.
2012: Vote for Romney and we'll fix it next election.
2016: Vote for Trump and we'll fix it next election.

You know what the definition of insanity is, right?

All of those guys were politicians. Trump isn't. To compare him to the others isn't fair, or honest. Trump is very different than any candidate the republicans have ever put up for the white house. I would certainly expect a Trump white house to be different than any we've seen before, & much more honest.

Let Hillary pick a couple SC Justices, & we'll all be singing the blues....... no matter how you slice it, no matter how one justifies it in their minds, THAT is reality. All other things aside, are you willing to sacrifice the 2A because Trump isn't your guy...??

Maybe you're not a single issue voter. Maybe the 2A isn't THAT single issue to you. Cool. I just don't want to see our rights further diminished by a SC that will surely do exactly that if you add a few HRC appointees..... I don't think anyone being honest would deny that possibility.

[ShotgunBlast]

Wow, a sales pitch based on fear and a call for abandoning your principles. Republicans are sounding more like Democrats everyday.

As for the Republican's slogan of "vote for us because at least we're not the other guy," it goes back farther than T-Mac.

1988: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
1992: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
1996: Vote for Dole and we'll fix it next election.
2000: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
2004: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
2008: Vote for McCain and we'll fix it next election.
2012: Vote for Romney and we'll fix it next election.
2016: Vote for Trump and we'll fix it next election.

You know what the definition of insanity is, right?

All of those guys were politicians. Trump isn't. To compare him to the others isn't fair, or honest. Trump is very different than any candidate the republicans have ever put up for the white house. I would certainly expect a Trump white house to be different than any we've seen before, & much more honest.

Let Hillary pick a couple SC Justices, & we'll all be singing the blues....... no matter how you slice it, no matter how one justifies it in their minds, THAT is reality. All other things aside, are you willing to sacrifice the 2A because Trump isn't your guy...??

Maybe you're not a single issue voter. Maybe the 2A isn't THAT single issue to you. Cool. I just don't want to see our rights further diminished by a SC that will surely do exactly that if you add a few HRC appointees..... I don't think anyone being honest would deny that possibility.

Sacrifice the 2A? A bit hyperbolic maybe? Here you had a guy campaign in 2008 on HOPE and CHANGE and Washington DC is more status quo then ever. You think a Hillary presidency is going to change anything?

The point though isn't comparing previous candidates as being politicians vs Trump as not being a politician (although that in itself is a laugh since being a business owner at his level he's very much involved in politics to get his deals done). The guy hasn't held an elected office, but his campaign contributions over his life have definitely made him a politician. Anyways, the point is that rank-and-file Republicans, average people like the folks on this forum, have gone with the policy of "we'll hold our nose for this nominee because they're better than the D nominee and we'll just get a better nominee next election." Obviously that hasn't happened in the last 20 so the point is the Republican party needs a better game plan if they want to attract voters, grow the party, and win elections. So when people say in 2016 "hold your nose and vote for Trump and we'll get a better nominee next cycle" I laugh and give the Republican party a F in credibility.

As for the SCOTUS fearmongering, we heard the same thing when Obama took office that the world was going to end so I'm sorry if I don't buy it when people say Hillary in the WH will cause the world to end. BHO put two people on the court and 5 Republicans voted for Kagan and 8 voted for Sotomayor. Republicans didn't have control of the Senate then but they do now so as long as the Republicans keep control of the Senate (again, their's to lose) no radical appointments are even being considered. And I hope you'll pardon me if I don't put my faith in potential Trump appointments. Sure he put out a list of potential nominees, but what's to keep him from backing someone not on the list? Nothing about his campaign has indicated rational, coherent thought. Everyone makes him out like he's some big conservative, but what were his political affiliations prior to BHO coming into office? Well, from 2001-2009 he was a registered Democrat. He has changed his political affiliation multiple times over his voting life and up until the last five years most of his political donations went to Democrats. Not exactly the staunch conservative principles I would expect Republicans to support in their nominee, but 2016 is a crazy year.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you like Trump, vote for Trump. If you like Clinton, vote for Clinton. If you like Johnson, vote for Johnson. But decades of people on both parties not voting FOR someone but rather AGAINST the other person has just produced worse and worse candidates and here we are today with two of the worst from the major political parties. The world didn't end when T-Mac became the governor and it is not going to end with a HRC presidency, because if it were half of you folks would be making plans to move out of country. We're all just going to do when someone from another party wins - suck it up and hope we win next election.

[SHMIV]

Hillary will continue the destruction of Obama. Hillary will appoint horrible judges that are unfriendly to any of the 10 Amendments (not just the 2nd one). Hillary will do everything she can to eliminate our borders, for all intents and purposes. We know this.

We know what Trump says about these things, but it's true that we can't be sure what he will actually do.

Incidentally, most of his campaign does exhibit rational and coherent thought. He wagered that folks are tired of politicians that talk like politicians. So he talks "off the cuff", and avoids scripted speech, and speaks in a plainer manner. Looking at the outcome, thus far, I'd say he wasn't wrong. He also suspected that normal Americans were tired of the Mexican invasion. He's right. He figured that folks didn't much care for the idea of letting Jihadists into the country. He's right about that.

He's picked a target demographic, and he has played to them. From what I've gathered, he identifies with his target demographic, to some extent. He could have just as easily picked urban, black folk as a target demographic, and played to them, but he didn't. He chose to speak to blue collar white folk, instead. There has to be a reason.

At risk of sounding like a broken record, Donald Trump is NOT the mediocre Republican. The Republican candidate this year was supposed to be Jeb. It was Jebs turn. Once he was gone, the GOP tried to get Rubio the nod. My God, the powers that were, within the GOP, did not want Trump. Donald Trump broke the pattern. That is a good thing. So far, it seems that Trump has a spine, is not inclined to apologize if some SJW gets offended by something he said, and he is not inclined to apologize to the rest of the world just because we figured out how to be a superior country. That sets him apart from Romney, or McCain, or Jeb, or any other mediocre Republican that we've been expected to tolerate.

Our borders are important. Donald Trump seems to understand this. None of the other candidates grasp this. Without a border, we have no country. Gary Johnson seems to think that we are getting wholesome families coming over the border. If we would just work with them, they could be productive members of society, he thinks. This is foolish. Johnson is utterly ignorant on this subject. Considering that he governed New Mexico, this should be alarming to anyone who pays attention. Places near our southern borders are filthy and disgusting. Been to El Paso, lately? Or Las Cruces? Everyone speaks Spanish, and litter paves the streets. Those people don't want to be Americans. They just want American money, so that they can send it back to their 3rd world hell-hole. Looks to me like their 3rd world hell-hole is creeping up here.

Of equal importance to the borders, is the Supreme Court. I don't know what kind of judges that Trump would ultimately pick, but it is foolish to think that Hillary is going to show any kind of restraint when selecting nominees, and it's foolish to think that the Democrats in Congress won't badger, berate, bully, and otherwise wear down their Republican counterparts until they approve one of Hillarys unfit nominees. That's what they always do.

There are only 2 real choices, this election, just like usual. Come January, either Hillary will be sworn in, or Trump will be. Anyone voting for Jill Stein is doing so because of pot smoke and earth worship, and are delusional enough to believe that she can win. Anyone who is voting for Johnson must be be clever enough to realize that he'll never win, so it must be for spite. But, like I said, it's not the establishment GOP that will receive the spite; they'd rather have Hillary, anyway. They've made that abundantly clear.

I could understand this whole Johnson thing alot better if we were looking at Jeb vs. Hillary. At that point, Hillary would win, regardless, so throwing up a giant middle finger by voting for Johnson would be an attractive choice. If that were the scenario, I'd probably do the same thing. But, as it stands now, voting for the faux choice is pointless. It won't send the desired message. What it will do, is contribute to the elect Hillary efforts, and effectively give the Republican party permission to go back to business as usual.

I will admit that if you write up a list of Johnsons positives, and do the same for Trump, Johnson is likely to have a longer list. But, some things are more important than others. I'm reminded of a couple of tires that I used to have. One tire had good tread, it was smooth on the side, good whitewall, fairly new... cleaned up nice. The other tire was completely bald, the whitewall was eaten up by road rash, it was covered in dry-rot cracks, and it was clearly ancient. On paper, it would seem that the newer tire was superior. In practice, though, the old, bald tire had one thing in its favor. It held air. The gash in the sidewall of the newer tire prevented it from being inflated. So, since I had no money, I drove on the old, bald tire. It only had one positive point, but that one attribute made the difference.

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