Comparing Virginia and Ohio

[AlanM]

I am about to go down to the Albemarle county clerk's office this week to renew my VA CHP as I'll have been a resident here for five years as of this summer and it's about to expire. (I lived in Ohio for over 30 years prior to moving here.)

SIDENOTE to VA CHP holders: The window to apply for renewal is 180 to 90 days before the expiration date of your CHP. I wasn't aware of this and luckily found out in time. I'm right at the 120 day mark.

In some ways the self protection climate/attitudes here in Virginia is much better than Ohio and is some ways not.

My friends in Ohio are flat AMAZED that the VCDL can get 1200 people to show up at the state capitol for a "gun lobby day" and I assure you that they envy that accomplishment.
They would also be envious of how many, and how quickly pro-gun bills get passed here in VA.

There are two things about Ohio that those here in Virginia might like to emulate (imitation IS the best compliment).

First off is the Buckeye Firearms Association's FAST program.
Armed Teachers Now Trained in 63 Ohio Counties
Note: Ohio state law is such that individuals CAN be given permission by a school board to carry in and on school property.

The second is a little piece of tort law that went into effect in 2008 that really didn't have anything to do with gun rights and wasn't noticed by the gun community until it had been signed into law by the governor. It's a few paragraphs in a section of the Ohio Revised Code that has, IMHO, profound import to anyone in Ohio that has to use their firearm to protect themselves or someone else.

The sub-chapter of the ORC that it's in is ORC 2307.60 Civil action for damages for criminal act.

This sub-chapter spells out the legal recourse that is available to someone that has been damaged during a criminal act. Sections (B)(2) thru (B)(4) are the interesting parts:

Basically they say that if a person is hurt, killed, or suffers financial damage while committing an illegal act they were convicted of committing or would have been convicted of if they had lived they CANNOT sue ANYONE nor, if they are killed can their heirs, or representatives of their estate sue. In other words, they are responsible for their own actions.

Note however this doesn't protect a shooter (who is a victim of the crime) from being sued if they hit an innocent bystander. (makes sense to me)

EDIT: I'm not aware of a VA law or case law that provides similar protection from cases like this.
I'm reminded of the burglar that broke into a closed McDonald's restaurant by way of the ventilation ducting and fell into a scalding hot deep fat fryer. He sued McDonald's for medical costs and his pain and anguish AND WON!!!!!
This Ohio law was enacted to prevent this type of law suit from ever getting on a docket.

[WRW]

On the McDonald's case, was that in Virginia?

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[AlanM]

OBTW - I don't think Virginia's preemption law has the teeth in it that Ohio's has.

9.68 Right to bear arms - challenge to law.

Two paragraphs (minus the definitions) short, sweet, and to the point.

ORC 9.68 Right to bear arms - challenge to law.
(A) The individual right to keep and bear arms, being a fundamental individual right that predates the United States Constitution and Ohio Constitution, and being a constitutionally protected right in every part of Ohio, the general assembly finds the need to provide uniform laws throughout the state regulating the ownership, possession, purchase, other acquisition, transport, storage, carrying, sale, or other transfer of firearms, their components, and their ammunition. Except as specifically provided by the United States Constitution, Ohio Constitution, state law, or federal law, a person, without further license, permission, restriction, delay, or process, may own, possess, purchase, sell, transfer, transport, store, or keep any firearm, part of a firearm, its components, and its ammunition.

(B) In addition to any other relief provided, the court shall award costs and reasonable attorney fees to any person, group, or entity that prevails in a challenge to an ordinance, rule, or regulation as being in conflict with this section.

There have been several court cases since this went into effect and the cities lost every time (several went all the way to the Ohio Supreme Court). They ended up paying all the court costs and attorney fees of the challengers, Ohioans For Concealed Carry usually.

When I lived in Ohio and was an active member of OFCC several of us got together on the forums and researched every Ohio city, town, and county that had their statutes online. We made note of every violation of ORC 9.68 we could find, form letters were crafted, and in over a period of about two weeks those letters were mailed out to the senior executives and law directors of all venues that were in violation. There were followup emails and AFAIK most if not all of the really bad violators have revised their laws.
That included licensing and registration schemes and "assault weapon" bans stricter than state law.
Every once in a while someone will find a town or township that either ignored the letters/emails, doesn't have their statutes online, or for some reason slipped through the cracks. These usually are resolved quickly and easily.

This law has been in effect since 2007 and, as it turns out, had to be used to nudge a township council just last week that was considering a zoning change to basically outlaw legal "kitchen table" FFLs.
See the OFCC forums thread: Copley looks to ban sale of firearms at private residences.

[WRW]

15.2-915 was amended in 2009 to similar wording.

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[AlanM]

On the McDonald's case, was that in Virginia?

Frankly, I have no idea.
After doing some Googling I'm afraid that the story is probably a hoax.

We all know about the woman who spilled her hot coffee in her own lap, sued McDonald's, and won.
(I've actually done this myself with McDonald's coffee. Took over two years for the burn marks on my chest to fade.)( I didn't sue McDonald's. The spill was directly due to my own stupidity and clumsiness.)


I did, however, find this: The burglar and the skylight: another debunking that isn’t where a high school student was on the roof of a school stealing a bell and fell through a skylight and was severely hurt.
He sued and settled out of court. (Which I count as a win)

If you want a giggle Google "Burglar sues for damages". There have been some REALLY stupid law suits.

That being said, someone was able to convince enough Ohio legislators and the governor to get that gem inserted into Ohio law and as far as I'm concerned it's one of the few good laws around.
Sort of an anti-stupidity law.

[AlanM]

15.2-915 was amended in 2009 to similar wording.

Thanks for the heads up. I have bookmarks for all gun related Ohio state laws. I don't have that list for Virginia yet.

https://vacode.org/15.2-915/

§ 15.2-915 Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

C. In addition to any other relief provided, the court may award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any person, group, or entity that prevails in an action challenging (i) an ordinance, resolution, or motion as being in conflict with this section or (ii) an administrative action taken in bad faith as being in conflict with this section.

[WRW]

OK, IANAL but Common Law provides for some defense against lawsuit by claimants involved in criminal acts at the time of the injury.

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[AlanM]

OK, IANAL but Common Law provides for some defense against lawsuit by claimants involved in criminal acts at the time of the injury.

That's another big difference between Ohio and Virginia (I prefer Virginia's take on this however, I've never tangled with the courts.)
The Ohio legislature is always, except for a few recesses for holidays and summer, in session.
These people are called "law makers" and obviously, considering the huge size of the Ohio Revised Code and the ancillary Ohio Administrative Code (ie regulations written by the different state agencies to implement the laws in the revised code), they believe that they are required to keep heaping laws on top of laws until every single thing a citizen does is defined down to, and beyond, their last breath.

That's why I am in awe of Virginia's legislature and it's short annual sessions. They don't mess around and get stuff done. Bills don't lie around in committees for months at a time and then die after hundreds of hours of testimony because the session has ended.

[WRW]

I do wonder about the rationale for "may award" in Virginia vs. "shall award" in Ohio.

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[AlanM]

I do wonder about the rationale for "may award" in Virginia vs. "shall award" in Ohio.

Probably the same as the distinction between "may issue" and "shall issue" when talking about state's concealed carry laws.
Nice catch by the way, I didn't EVEN notice the difference in wording.


I can't find how much Cleveland had to shell out but here's the results of another case where the city in question settled.
Gun Rights Organization Lawsuit Dismissed, But City Ordered to Pay Legal Fees