Woman stabbed to death

[wittmeba]

No gun for defense - now she is dead.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_j ... veway.html

[Swampman]

Where the hell is a cop when you need one?

[wittmeba]

Where the hell is a cop when you need one?

I won't challenge your question but this is a case where it was too late. If she could have provided her own defense she may still be here today. Id be curious to know what time the 911 call was entered with the time of the response of 10:15.

[skeeterss0]

When seconds count, cops are just minutes away.

Shows how much good a restraining order does also.

[MarcSpaz]

No disrespect intended, as I know being a police office is a dangerous job. When it comes to actual crimes in progress, there are no police. Most Sheriff's Departments and City Police are really the Clean-up Crew, collect the bodies and call the Detectives.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[dusterdude]

True

[wittmeba]

Yeah, Marc. It is just sad that she could not get her gun rights/permit quick enough. She was on the right track but a little late. Shame.

[Snakester]

It's sad that it has come to "Every man for himself"....But people have to be able to protect themselves because you can not depend on anyone else. I preach this to Carol all the time.

[CCFan]

Not bashing either, but courts have ruled that officers are not responsible for individual safety... While the vast majority put their lives on the line for us, there is no legal obligation to protect an individual, but rather society as a whole. Google Warren Vs. DC for more details...

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[MarcSpaz]

That actually makes sense. If a mob of people are trying to kill one person and a single police officer is driving by, if he acts on his own... then there will likely be 2 dead people rather than 1. That doesn't really help anyone. It can't be criminal for a LEO to preserve their own live while attempting to help others. And... if it was any other way, it would criminal if they failed to be able to assist someone, even if they try.

The only way to protect the lives of police offices from what may outwardly seem obvious, is to first make the declaration that they are not responsible for the lives of others.

My problem with that is, that mindset does fall on the citizens. In VA, as in many states, its a crime to "fail to render aid, resulting in death".

[Swampman]

Hmmm . . . my question was tongue-in-cheek. Not meant to offend any LEO's. You couldn't pay me enough to do that job. Best leave it to those who want to do it.

[Jeff82]

In VA, as in many states, its a crime to "fail to render aid, resulting in death".

Show me the statute. As I understand it it only applies to drivers of motor vehicles after accidents or other causes of collisions.

As to the OP: another death with the State as a major contributor.

[MarcSpaz]

In VA, as in many states, its a crime to "fail to render aid, resulting in death".

Show me the statute. As I understand it it only applies to drivers of motor vehicles after accidents or other causes of collisions.

As to the OP: another death with the State as a major contributor.

I don't understand. Are you saying the what I am saying either isn't true or not relevant because its your understanding its only about a car accident? I hope I am misunderstanding the point of your request.

There several statutory codes as well as tort law. Research it a little yourself. You will be shocked at what you find. In the interim, here are a couple links to get you started.

I believe the code you are talking about being relating to driving is here...

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp50 ... d+46.2-483

but then there are examples like this...

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp50 ... d+18.2-463

Failing to follow police orders to rescue someone or to apprehend an escaped prisoner is illegal. So, the police don't have to save your life or even apprehend a criminal, and if they don't, there are no repercussions. If an officer orders me to rescue you and I don't, I can go to jail. Seems like a double standard to me.

Like I said, I don't think a LEO should be held responsible for not saving a life, especially at the cost of his/her own. I just think that if a Police Officer doesn't have the obligation, then no one should be forced into it. I also believe that since it is no one's responsibility but our own, we should be allowed to protect ourselves by any means... period.

[Jeff82]

Marc,

I truly didn't know about the other use (your second link) in assisting an officer and I'm interested in learning more. Thanks for that. I did a google search and all I could come up with was the driving one. I used to be an officer over 29 years ago and I've forgotten more than I knew!

I understand Warren v. DC and there are several more, that show LEO's do not have a legal duty to protect any individual. They do have department policy though that requires they're being involved to the extent that they can (written differently depending on what dept you go to). We may not be able to put one in jail or get a big settlement over nonprotection but we might be able to cause one to lose his/her job/get unpaid time off over it (depending on dept attitude).

I do think however, that failing to follow a lawful order isn't quite the same as, "fail to render aid, resulting in death" in which no order was given.

[MarcSpaz]

I was hoping I was reading into your question a bit too far, which it appears I was. Glad I asked.

Thanks for the clarification. I see where you are coming from for sure. I guess the way I phased my comment initially was not completely inline with what I was thinking about.

And yes, there is an abundant amount ridiculous code in many state's statutes. There are entire website dedicated to poking fun at some of them.

Thank you for your service, both in the Army and as a LEO. It takes a special person to standup and volunteer for the job.

That said... if someone is afraid or unwilling to take action as a police officer... it does not make sense that I can be arrested for failure to follow a "lawful order" that he/she is afraid or unwilling to do, and not legally obligated to. Am I making sense?

[Jeff82]

I was hoping I was reading into your question a bit too far, which it appears I was. Glad I asked.

Thanks for the clarification. I see where you are coming from for sure. I guess the way I phased my comment initially was not completely inline with what I was thinking about.

And yes, there is an abundant amount ridiculous code in many state's statutes. There are entire website dedicated to poking fun at some of them.

Thank you for your service, both in the Army and as a LEO. It takes a special person to standup and volunteer for the job.

That said... if someone is afraid or unwilling to take action as a police officer... it does not make sense that I can be arrested for failure to follow a "lawful order" that he/she is afraid or unwilling to do, and not legally obligated to. Am I making sense?

You're welcome, just doing what a testosterone filled kid would do! haha

As to your last comment... maybe what we're talking about is what comes from having a requirement (law) that states you must follow an order by law enforcement generally? Giving the officers the ability to control a situtation. That general law is found to include having to follow his order if it means affecting an arrest or other assistance of the officer.

[Poisontail]

I live in jersey now and moving to virginia July 1st I have fist hand evidence that nj screws with your gun rights! I bought 3 pistols and it takes up to 7 months to secure them all the laws are hidious and disgusting here! And this fact shows that our laws are archaic. I'm not saying a firearm would have helped her but... It would have gave her a chance!

[MarcSpaz]

That's what America is supposed to be about. No guaranties, but unlimited opportunities. Whether to merely survive or to prosper beyond dreams, all people deserve the right to opportunity.

That why our founders put it in writing, in our Declaration of Independence, that all men have inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The first two Amendments to the constitution (Bill of Rights) are main tools that are supposed to be used by us protect our right to LIFE, so we can maintain liberty and pursue happiness.

As far as I am concerned, anyone who is denied their right to defend themselves by any means necessary has been grossly violated by our country and/or State. Unfortunately, today, that likely includes all US citizens.