BATFE To Ban Common AR-15 Ammo

[OakRidgeStars]

If we don't make our voices heard, this administration will not stop until we all completely disarmed.

ATF email: APAComments@atf.gov

http://dailycaller.com/2015/02/14/batfe ... r-15-ammo/

[SHMIV]

How did we end up with various government agencies making up their own rules and passing them off as laws, and enforcing them as such?

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[GregVa]

Wow .. any angle they can use. Would this ban 7.62 as well? They talk about .22.. so does that include .556?

So I guess I have to get one of those golf ball launcher attachments if I want to keep using my AR.

What about he NRA, can they help to prevent passing of this?

[Bags30]

Their retaliation for the SIG Brace. I said it before, they don't like to be outsmarted.

[Bags30]

The rule could potentially apply to any caliber used on the AR platform that could be in a pistol version. So, yes, 7.62 as well. If not now, eventually.

[Mindflayer]

What is ridiculous is that BAFTE has ruled multiple times in the past that M855 was NOT AP. Now they reverse their ruling. I wonder why....

[MarcSpaz]

I emailed this...

APAComments@atf.gov
Comment - Framework for Deciding Sporting Purpose Ammunition pursuant to 18 USC 921(a)(17)


From:
Marc Spazxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
Woodbridge, VA. 2219x
xxx-xxx-xxxx

To:
Denise Brown
Enforcement Programs and Services
Office of Regulatory Affairs
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
U.S. Department of Justice
99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226
(202) 648-7070.

Today, I am writing you to comment on the document and proposed rule change titled “Framework for Deciding Sporting Purpose Ammunition pursuant to 18 USC 921(a)(17)” I have spent some time reviewing the documentation and have developed an opinion. I hope to share that with you today. However, before I present my opinion, I would like to preface this with several facts.

Though I am writing this as an individual citizen and my message today has nothing to do with my work, nor am I attempting to use my position to my own advantage, I do want to share some personal information. I have many people in my life whom I love who are police officers. Uncles, cousins, etc. I personally am not a law enforcement officer, nor have I ever been. I do, however, work as a government contractor (in IT) for Federal Law Enforcement and have for the last 16 years. I have many friends and co-workers who are law enforcement officers at the local, state and federal level.

I share this information with you, solely for the purpose to let you know that the safety of the brave men and women who keep our streets safe is of the utmost importance to me. Not just because they are people who have a right to live, but because these people are people I love.

With that said, I have some concerns about the revocation of exemptions M855 ball ammunition. M855 is very common .223 / 5.56mm ammunition. There are a significant amount of firearms that use this particular ammunition. With the proposed changes put in place, M855 ball ammunition would no longer be a viable option for sporting or personal defense. My goal in writing today it to continue to have this ammunition (and ammunition like it) to continue to be available to the general public for sporting and defense purposes.

First and foremost you acknowledge in your documentation, repeatedly during the creation and publicizing of the LEOPA, Congress specified that only bullets capable of penetrating body armor and designed to be fired from a handgun would be banned, meaning rifle ammunition would not be covered. Soft body armor is not intended to stop high powered rifle cartridges. M855 ammunition is high powered rifle ammunition. If you review the definitions in LEOPA 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B)(ii), you will see that the intent of the projectile is relevant, which contributed to the need for alternate definition.

Supporting the fact that this code was not intended to restrict law abiding citizens from having access to this ammunition and the intended purpose of the ammunition is relevant, we look to 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). It says The GCA allows for the exemption of ammunition “if the Attorney General determines that the specific ammunition at issue is ‘primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes’”. The phases “primarily intended” or “sporting purposes.” Were not defined. Nor does the statue say the Attorney General or anyone else can assign a definition. The lack of definition does not empower anyone to make up a definition, but rather apply the commonly accepted definition.

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Primarily - for the most part; used to indicate the main purpose of something, reason for something, etc.
Intended - expected to be such in the future; in your mind as a purpose or goal
Sporting - of, relating to, used, or suitable for sport
Purposes - a subject under discussion or an action in course of execution; the reason why something is done or used : the aim or intention of something

Using the aforementioned currently accepted definitions, the law would read…

“if the Attorney General determines that the specific ammunition at issue is ‘of having the main purpose expected to be to be used for actions relating to, used, or suitable for sport purposes’…”.

Based on the widespread use in the civilian market (which is the subject of the LEOPA, the rule, and debate of proposed changes), the number one purposes for M855 ammunition is for sporting purposes. Reviewing the definition of the words, it is not possible for the Attorney General or anyone else delegated, to make a determination other than the main purpose is for sporting use.

To further the support for maintaining the exemption of M855, we need to look at the spirit of the law, which is too save the lives of law enforcement officers. I would have to ask that the BATFE present proof that this is actually an issues. I have not been able to find any statistics with the BATFE, FBI or any other federal agency that shows how often, if at all, police are killed with armor piecing rounds. The last known shooting I found was the North Hollywood Shootout in 1997. I have not found any examples before or after this time.

Also, even with the steel core, the .223 (5.56x45mm) 62 grain M855 ammunition has been proven time and time again that it does not have the penetration power of the 7.62 x39 or .308 Winchester (7.62×51mm) cartridges. Both of those rounds are designed to be used in high power rifles (as is the M855), can both penetrate soft body armor when fired from a pistol, but neither of them meet the requirements of being considered “armor piercing”. (reference NATO EPVAT testing and the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI) class of procedures.)

The bottom line is the LEOPA, like many other statutory gun laws, does absolutely nothing to save lives. The further ruling to revoke exemptions will do nothing to save lives. The truth is, the Second Amendment protects our God given natural right to protect ourselves when it says “shall not be infringed”. The proposed framework, like every other statutory firearms law, violates the Constitution, infringes on our rights, disarms honest citizens, and does absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop criminals.

I hope that you will find that it is unnecessary to revoke any exemptions, but rather, find a true means to save lives.

Thank you for your time and considerations.

Marc Spazxxxx

[Monkey]

Lots of short term second and third order effects coming.

Good luck finding M855 on Gunbroker, etc.

My prediction: AR price inflation in the next 1-3 days.

Can't get M855? Buy more 22lr!

Standby for price spikes in 3...2...1...

[Radiac]

Good luck finding M855 anywhere. It's been selling out all day.

[MarcSpaz]

I got 100 round for $500 for anyone dumb enough to buy it. PM me so everyone doesn't know what a tard you are.

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[Ron71]

This government is just following the lead of the executive in charge - if you can't do it legally...just do it anyway. By the time the snail called Congress corrects the situation it will be a fait accompli...

Unfortunately ... often it works.

[Monkey]

I got 100 round for $500 for anyone dumb enough to buy it. PM me so everyone doesn't know what a tard you are.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Oh, I'm in. One thing - my money is kinda tied up in a Nigerian bank account and I could use your help...

[AlanM]

Anybody know what the muzzle energy and MV is for that cartridge is when shot out of a pistol length barrel?
I'd like to see the tests that prove that M855 is "armor piercing".
What do they define as "armor"?

[OakRidgeStars]

I'm surprised there's no mention of FN 5.7 or .17HMR. Maybe that's next.

[AlanM]

Anybody know what the muzzle energy and MV is for that cartridge is when shot out of a pistol length barrel?
I'd like to see the tests that prove that M855 is "armor piercing".
What do they define as "armor"?

To answer my own question I present these two citations:
BARREL LENGTH STUDIES IN 5.56MM NATO WEAPONS
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%97 ... 109.2FM855

I don't know if this helps or hurts us in the argument.

[zykur]

They didn't take the guns after Sandy Hook because they botched by not moving swiftly enough when public opinion was on their side with fiery emotion and anger following the massacre for one, and two it's very difficult to pull off the full Monty all at once.

The government has wised up and realize they have do it methodically and slow because it's an easier pill to swallow for the masses.
You heard the speech repeatedly, "Common sense measures". People will say, "It makes sense that civilians shouldn't need armor piercing rounds. It makes sense civilians shouldn't need the availability of body armor.
It makes sense that civilians should have to register their weapons.
It makes sense that civilians shouldn't need to own more than one or two firearms. It makes sense......" This is a small victory for them when it pushes through towards a greater end goal.

The ATF is accepting comments but I imagine they will fall on deaf ears but contact them anyway.

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[Reverenddel]

E-mail Sent... Good luck to us all.

[Bags30]

Would ammo have grandfather clauses?
May want to keep any you already have to yourself.

[zykur]

I would imagine if you already have M885 you should be fine but they would have to stop selling it.
I'm lucky I stocked up and haven't been able to shoot it since most ranges don't take kindly to using it indoors.

[MarcSpaz]

I got 100 round for $500 for anyone dumb enough to buy it. PM me so everyone doesn't know what a tard you are.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Oh, I'm in. One thing - my money is kinda tied up in a Nigerian bank account and I could use your help...

Are we raiding the bank? I just got a new 5.11 LBE and ceramic plates I want to test out!!!

Anybody know what the muzzle energy and MV is for that cartridge is when shot out of a pistol length barrel?
I'd like to see the tests that prove that M855 is "armor piercing".
What do they define as "armor"?

What I find absolutely ridiculous is the government asked to have the M855 developed so our troops could have rounds that penetrated enemy helmets. They know what the round does and playing stupid doesn't do any good.

The problem is we have the God given right to defend ourselves from THEM!!! They need to knock it off. We need to contact Congress and tell them to stop them and if they don't,we are going to remove them from office.

Zykur is right... its dead by 1,000 lashes. if this was 1915 and we went from the laws then to the laws now in less than a year, the country would blow-up in unrest. Why are we tolerating it now? Use the system and stop these tyrants from destroying our country and taking our freedom one rule at a time.