Suppressed at the Range?

[alan]

If I legally acquire a suppressor can I use it at any public range?
I appreciate the help. I have searched a few forums and the VSP regulations and cannot find any information that specifically refers to restrictions on use of suppressors in the state of Virginia.

[MarcSpaz]

Suppressors are not regulated in Virginia. If you own one, you can use it anywhere as long as the individual private property owner (aka the range) does not object.

Just remember, if you made it, make sure its engraved and you have a copy of your tax stamp and an ID. If it was a transfer, same rules apply obviously, but it will have already been engraved by the manufacturer. Just toss a copy in your range bag and you should be fine.

BTW... don't know if anyone here has anything to add to this, but I hear most range owners and/or RSO's don't really call people out on tax stamps. Also, they rarely limit anything but full auto fire to government LEO's... at least until they get to know you... then some places even make an exception for that on the individual basis.

[alan]

Thanks for the response. I don't currently have access to private property to shoot locally, so most of my shooting is at public ranges. I don't currently have a trust. I didn't want to start the process of filing forms and paying fees only to find out I can't shoot it at most of the places I go.

[jdonovan]

I have never been to a public range where suppressors were prohibited.

I have never once been asked to show paperwork. I have been asked if I have it, but never required to produce it.

But be ready to be an ambassador of the NFA world. Especially if you are on a range dominated by the wood stock/blued barrel crowd. They generate a bunch of curiosity.

I even got a RSO to 'bend' the ear-pro rule for 2 min after a target change so the line could hear what a 300-blk bolt gun was like. I had EVEN MORE interest after the quick demo.

[Reverenddel]

Okay, Now you have my curosity up. I have heard 7.62x39 suppressed, 9MM, .22LR, what is 300BLK sound like compared to those?

[jdonovan]

subsonic 300blk from a BOLT GUN is different than an AR. I've got no action cycling, no 'pop' from the breach as the action opens; I can run powder selections that wont' even have enough gas to run an AR.

IMO quieter than subsonic 9mm

[RO73]

Okay, Now you have my curosity up. I have heard 7.62x39 suppressed, 9MM, .22LR, what is 300BLK sound like compared to those?

300blk is as quiet and sometimes even more quiet than a suppressed 22lr. You would have to hear it to believe it.

[MarcSpaz]

Okay, I just got some info from my lawyer today. He specializes exclusively in firearms related matters, ranging from criminal defense after a self defense shooting to NFA/GSA to Estate and Arsenal Trusts. He has said that by law, you are only obligated to present proof of paying the tax and ownership to an ATF field agent. If that agent ask for anything else... they need a warrant. If any other LEO, federal, state or local asks... they need a warrant.

He added that, though other agencies need a warrant, its likely in your best interest to be cooperative once you establish that you are not being suspected of a crime.

So in my opinion based on that advice, if the range staff asks (or anyone else for that matter) its none of their business and you don't have to answer. May be a good idea to play along to avoid conflict though.

Thanks for the response. I don't currently have access to private property to shoot locally, so most of my shooting is at public ranges. I don't currently have a trust. I didn't want to start the process of filing forms and paying fees only to find out I can't shoot it at most of the places I go.

I think you got some bad information on what a Trust is, how to create and use one. There is no "filing forms" or paying any fees (unless you higher a lawyer to write it for you). It is literally just a written declaration of ownership of community property and Estate Planing.

Think of it like a Will. A will is nothing more than written a declaration of your desires with regard to who you "trust" to divide your assets and disseminate them to your beneficiaries once you pass away. There is no registration, filing or fees. Just witness and Notary... and its a legal binding contract.

An Arsenal Gun Trust is the exact same thing... only you can take advantage of it yourself exclusively or collectively with other people. It is a Living Will. Like a Will, its a good idea to hire a good lawyer to help write it so it cannot be easily contested, by ensuring it's legally sound.

Most people I know who have used a lawyer who specialize in Arsenal Trusts, paid as little as $350 in fees to the lawyer.

[jdonovan]

Okay, I just got some info from my lawyer today. He specializes exclusively in firearms related matters, ranging from criminal defense after a self defense shooting to NFA/GSA to Estate and Arsenal Trusts. He has said that by law, you are only obligated to present proof of paying the tax and ownership to an ATF field agent. If that agent ask for anything else... they need a warrant. If any other LEO, federal, state or local asks... they need a warrant.

not entirely true. Va requires registration for MG's with the VA state police. ANY "peace officer" can ask for this information, and it must be presented to them. Oh and to add to the fun, once legally seized they can keep and destroy it!

You probably asked about suppressors/sbr's because that's what you own... and you got an answer about those. But the NFA includes more than just those types of items.

Also keep in mind in some states possession of certain NFA regulated items is specifically a crime by state law. And the possession of the tax receipt is an exception to it being a crime. So while you don't have to present the papers, you can have it confiscated and be arrested for failing to assert a defense to the crime.

I do know of 1 person who decided to not show his tax stamp when asked nicely. The items were taken, and he was arrested. The LEO chose not to thoroughly search the car and didn't find registration papers. It took several days for him to get out of jail, and weeks longer and lawyers to get the items back from the sheriffs office.

[MarcSpaz]

Makes sense. That would explain why he said its in your best interest to be cooperative once you establish that you are not being suspected of a crime.

EDIT: yes... we spoke exclusively of use of suppressors in VA.

[cdb]

But be ready to be an ambassador of the NFA world. Especially if you are on a range dominated by the wood stock/blued barrel crowd. They generate a bunch of curiosity.

Ain't that the truth. Bringing out the SBRs and cans always seems to attract attention, especially the subsonic 300BLK. It's understandable, and usually results in some good conversations. It is a shame, though, that the NFA keeps so many people from enjoying quiet shooting.

[jdonovan]

I've personally helped guide 3 new NFA owners. I'm doing my part. How about the rest of ya?

The more people we get into the hobby, the more people have 'skin in the game' if the politicians try to change the rules.

[MarcSpaz]

Same here. I try to talk folks into it daily. I think I got a person to convert from an Anti-2A person to a Pro-gunner about to get into NFA.

I was talking to a guy who works at my local bank. He asked me about my pistol and said with all the "high profile shootings" and the riots will lead to tighter guns laws. He said that he doesn't think anyone should have guns.

I said "Do you hear what you are saying? People are rioting because the cops are killing unarmed people, and your solution is to disarm the people? That will just shift the balance of power even more toward the government, which is the one abusing the power and killing unarmed people." (which of course, you have to speak liberal to get them to understand).

The guy was like "wow, I never thought of it that way." hahahaha I think that guy is sold. When I left he asked if he could talk more the next time I was in.

[alan]

Thanks for the response. I don't currently have access to private property to shoot locally, so most of my shooting is at public ranges. I don't currently have a trust. I didn't want to start the process of filing forms and paying fees only to find out I can't shoot it at most of the places I go.

I think you got some bad information on what a Trust is, how to create and use one. There is no "filing forms" or paying any fees (unless you higher a lawyer to write it for you). It is literally just a written declaration of ownership of community property and Estate Planing.

Think of it like a Will. A will is nothing more than written a declaration of your desires with regard to who you "trust" to divide your assets and disseminate them to your beneficiaries once you pass away. There is no registration, filing or fees. Just witness and Notary... and its a legal binding contract.

An Arsenal Gun Trust is the exact same thing... only you can take advantage of it yourself exclusively or collectively with other people. It is a Living Will. Like a Will, its a good idea to hire a good lawyer to help write it so it cannot be easily contested, by ensuring it's legally sound.

Most people I know who have used a lawyer who specialize in Arsenal Trusts, paid as little as $350 in fees to the lawyer.

Actually I don't have much information at this point. I am a noob, I am researching to understand the process.

In my previous post I was referring to the end-to-end process of legally purchasing a suppressor. If I understand correctly, I must establish a trust for which I have no other need at this time. That's a fee, whether it is $800 for professional help or $20 for Quicken Willmaker. Then I purchase the suppressor. Cost of suppressor + $200 Tax Stamp. Form 1? Form 3 Form4? I don't know exactly which are required under which circumstances, but I know that I must file some form to legally posses the suppressor. I probably missed something else I need to do, but from a noob point of view I see fees and filing forms.

I hope I don't sound like I am whining about the process, I am not. I am weighing the time and financial commitment of purchasing a suppressor against where, when and how often I can use it. It sounds like I should be able to use it wherever I currently shoot. That's good news.

Thanks to everyone for the responses, this has been very helpful for me.

[cdb]

I hope I don't sound like I am whining about the process, I am not. I am weighing the time and financial commitment of purchasing a suppressor against where, when and how often I can use it. It sounds like I should be able to use it wherever I currently shoot. That's good news.

Nope, doesn't sound like whining at all. And you're right, there's fees and hassle involved no matter how you go about getting into NFA.

Rest assured that pretty much every one of us had the same questions before taking the plunge. And I've never met anyone who went through the hassle of getting a supressor and regretted it later, so hopefully that tells you something.

[MarcSpaz]

Like cdb mentions... all of the fees and filings are separate from creating a Trust and are required for each individual NFA item purchased. BUT, the retail stores I have been to are very helpful with walking new NFA customers through the process.

Now, if you do ever end up buying NFA items, the biggest benefits of a trust are you DO NOT have to get approval from your Police Chief, you don't need to be finger printed, you don't need to have your mugshot taken, all required for each transaction. Also, you can submit requests for tax stamps directly online through a service only available to businesses. Using the online service instead of paper means you could get your tax stamp in 35 days instead of 4 to 9 months; which intern mean you get to pick-up the item you payed for sooner.

Another big plus, you can do things like add friends and family to the trust, which legally protects you from committing a felony if they have physical access to your NFA items. You could be committing a felony simply by someone knowing where you keep your key for your gun locker or if you go the the range in a buddies car/truck and leave your items in his vehicles while you're having lunch.

Another reason I recommend forming a trust before you buy your first NFA item... it's addictive and you will buy more. Anything you have before the trust... you will have to pay another $200 in taxes to transfer each existing NFA to your trust, if you eventually create one.

Plus... its great for estate planning.

[jdonovan]

In my previous post I was referring to the end-to-end process of legally purchasing a suppressor. If I understand correctly...

A few holes in your understanding.

A NFA item can be owned by any legal entity.

Individual, corporation, trust, etc...

The plus of a trust, is multiple individuals can be a member of the trust, and no LEO sign off.

forms/costs:
1 - to make a new NFA device (convert normal rifle to short barelled)- $200
3 - dealer to dealer transfer - $0
4 - transfer to individual/corp/trust - $200

General process to buy:
Walk into store. Say to clerk I want that. Pay store purchase price. Fill out 4473 ( normal buy a gun forms). Get approved. Store fills out form 4 for you.
You take form 4 home, attach required paperwork, copy of trust for trusts, photos/fingerprints for individuals. Mail off to ATFE, wait 4-12 months. Store gets form 4 back from ATFE and calls you.
Goto store pick up item.
See doctor to have perm-a-grin removed.

Repeat until all disposable income has been consumed.


If you decide to go the trust route... please use a lawyer. If ANYTHING goes wrong with how your trust was setup, there is no lawyer that will fix things up for less than the cost of doing it right the first time. AND if it goes really wrong, then you've got a illegal possession problem to deal with.

5-8 large to get it setup right is much cheaper than 10 long in the fed-pen.