FBI going to 9mm pistols?

[Chasbo00]

I've seen lots of speculation fairly recently that the FBI is going to be switching from .40 S&W to 9mm pistols. This lends the speculation some credence:

This is a PRE-SOLICITATION NOTICE of a proposed requirement for various commercial "OFF THE SHELF" semi-automatic pistols chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge as defined by SAAMI. This notice is issued solely for informational and planning purposes only.

The following types of pistols, chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge, may be requested for testing and evaluation purposes under a future solicitation:


Class One Pistol: barrel length between 3.75" and 4.25"; with a minimum magazine capacity of 13 rounds.


Class Two Pistol: barrel length between 4.5" and 5.5"; with a minimum magazine capacity of 15 rounds.


Class One Training Pistol (Red Handle): deactivated with full articulation, red receiver and slide, night sights.


Class One "Man Marking" (a.k.a., "Simunitions") pistol: blue slide or slide with blue inserts.


The Federal Bureau of Investigation anticipates the release of a solicitation during FY2015/Q1; distributed solely through the General Services Administration (GSA) Federal Business Opportunities (FBO) Website (http://www.fedbizopps.gov). This notice does not constitute a Request for Proposal (RFP) and should not be construed to as a commitment of any kind by the Government to issue a formal solicitation or ultimately award a contract. Responses to this notice are not offers and cannot be accepted by the Government to form a binding contract. Any costs incurred by interested parties will NOT be reimbursed. It is the responsibility of any interested party to monitor this site for additional information pertaining to this notice.


Agency is contemplating single award of a firm fixed price (FFP) Indefinite-Delivery Indefinite-Quantity (IDIQ) contract to the contractor whose submission represents best value to the Government. The anticipated maximum, not to exceed, contract threshold is $100M for a twelve month base period and nine (9) possible additional one-year options. In accordance with FAR 2.101, Multi-Agency Contracts, the solicitation will include a provision authorizing other law enforcement agencies to utilize the contract vehicle. The North American Industry Classification System code is 332994 (Small Arms, Ordnance, and Ordnance Accessories Manufacturing) with a small business size standard of 1,000 employees. Interested parties shall be registered in the System for Award Management at (http://www.sam.gov).

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity ... e&_cview=0

[MarcSpaz]

Hmmm. Sounds interesting. I have a friend who is a markmen trainer for FBI, specifically with pistols. I'll ask him about it when I see him Saturday. He may not know any more than the rest of us, but if he does, it would be nice to know if there is legit interest or if it is a required re-eval due to time-in-service.

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[scrubber3]

Most law enforcement is going back to the 9mm. They've seen the light and now know that handguns in general suck. There's no difference between 9-.45 Ballistically so they're opting for the highest capacity and lowest recoil.

[FiremanBob]

So what are the feds going to do with all those .40 hollowpoints they bought?

[HighExpert]

They could put the ammo on the retail market and pay on the debt. We would all buy a box of Obama ammo just to put on the shelf. Second thought, it would never happen. They will dump it in the ocean before.

[dusterdude]

I see there is no 10 round capacity requirement


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[MarcSpaz]

I'll buy some 40 SW from FLETC at a bulk price...if they ever do sell it. Likely no though.

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[skeeterss0]

how about this; they trade their 40s for the armys 9mms. Both save our tax $$

[0ne5hot]

how about this; they trade their 40s for the armys 9mms. Both save our tax $$

you win.

[FreedomBoner]

Rumor is the .40 is having to much wear and tear on the weapon. My agency shoots the Sig P226 .40 and this is what I heard from our GM's. Then you add the everything else into the mix like price, recoil and how much more lead you can put down range with a 9mm

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[10mmSnob]

Maybe they're finally starting to heed their own advice:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

There are way too many tactical fanboys out there spreading garbage science in regards to wounding effects.

[Reverenddel]

You know, 9mm bullet technology has advanced so much, even I'm thinking of going back to it as a standard carry.

If the same round can be carried in a Glock 17, 19, and 26? Think about it... that's three different sized weapons that have high cap, and stopping power with low recoil.

just sayin'...

[10mmSnob]

You know, 9mm bullet technology has advanced so much, even I'm thinking of going back to it as a standard carry.

If the same round can be carried in a Glock 17, 19, and 26? Think about it... that's three different sized weapons that have high cap, and stopping power with low recoil.

just sayin'...

Be careful with phrases like "stopping power" and "hydrostatic shock", as some of these concepts are flat out wrong or unproven at best. Reports similar to the ones that I linked to above generally recognize two ways of incapacitating a target with handgun rounds: hits to the CNS or bleeding out through the primary wound channel.

The amount of force that's transferred to the human body during a hit by a handgun round is not much different from that of a baseball (even with larger rounds), and trying to advocate that someone can be "stopped" or pushed back by a handgun round violates the laws that were established back in the days of Newton's Principa Mathematica.

The graph that everyone passes around of the major handgun rounds passing through ballistics gel is misleading because ballistics gel is NOT the human body. A penetration of "x" inches in ballistics gel does not equate to a penetration of "x" inches in the human body as the human body is not homogenous like the gel block is. Also human tissue is capable of rebounding back to its original shape under some levels of stress and temporary disruptions that are created outside of the primary wound channel (as shown in the ballistics gel) do not become permanent in the human body unless the round is passing through at velocities exceeding 2000 fps.

[Chasbo00]

Executive Summary of Justification for Law Enforcement Partners

-Caliber debates have existed in law enforcement for decades

-Most of what is “common knowledge” with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore

-Projectiles are what ultimately wound our adversaries and the projectile needs to be the basis for the discussion on what “caliber” is best

-In all the major law enforcement calibers there exist projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing LEO’s in a shooting incident and there are projectiles which have a high ting incident likelihood of succeeding for LEO’s in a shooting incident

-Handgun stopping power is simply a myth

-The single most important factor in effectively wounding a human target is to have --penetration to a scientifically valid depth (FBI uses 12” – 18”)

-LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

-Contemporary projectiles (since 2007) have dramatically increased the terminal effectiveness of many premium line law enforcement projectiles (emphasis on the 9mm Luger offerings)

-9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, I outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI

-9mm Luger offers higher magazine capacities, less recoil, lower cost (both in ammunition and wear on the weapons) and higher functional reliability rates (in FBI weapons)

-The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)

-There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

-Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9 ... -division/

[dorminWS]

Personally, I think they just saw all the cool sparks and explosions they make and how unfailingly accurate on headshots they make Ziva David on NCIS.

Next thing you know, they'll all be driving those Dodges, too.

[M1A4ME]

History tends to repeat. This is not the first time the 9MM has been declared to be the equal of bigger bullets. Maybe one day we'll learn.

Ballistic gel and computer programs don't wear clothes, have varying amounts of muscle and bone.

Yes, I have/shoot 9MM's. The last gun I bought was a 9MM (holds 20 rounds) But I carry a "hot" .40 S&W with 13 rounds. "Hot" means a fast bullet. It's light, but still heavier than most 9MM bullets and moving quite a bit faster.

Every time folks start talking about bullet performance I remember all the groundhogs and deer I've shot and how the same bullets do different things when striking the same size animals in the same part of the body. And how most folks won't hunt large/dangerous game with small caliber guns when they can use a large caliber gun.

[MarcSpaz]

History tends to repeat....

...And how most folks won't hunt large/dangerous game with small caliber guns when they can use a large caliber gun.

Quoted for truth! If I am going hunting for a 1,000-1,500 lbs moose or bear, I'm not bringing a .223. Sure, I can make it work if I had too... but damn, I'm trying to kill it, not get it mad at me. LOL

[M1A4ME]

Reminds me of a story my uncle told me many years ago. I'll post elsewhere (I'm bad enough about hi jacking as it is). It includes a mad moose and a young US Army Lt.

[jdonovan]

I find it funny when you start talking to the bigger is better crowd, and suggest 10mm, they all seem to wince and say too much for me.... wait, wasn't more power better?

I guess what they really meant was "I like my 7-shot .45"

[M1A4ME]

If the recruits can't handle a .40 S&W (previously known as a 10MM Lite) they probably can't handle a 10MM.

I've never shot one but I can't imagine it being too bad. My "kicker" handguns are a S&W M29 4" and a Ruger Speed Six .357 magnum with 2&3/4" barrel.