AR Lower Reselling Question

ShotgunBlast · Post by **ShotgunBlast** » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 21:30:57

Around Christmas I purchased an AR lower and had it classified as a rifle when shipped to the FFL. I am since going to get rid of this lower and get another lower to build an AR pistol. My question is if I do a private sale (give it to a family member), can they build whatever they want with this lower or does it have to stay as a rifle?

MarcSpaz · Post by **MarcSpaz** » Thu, 24 Jul 2014 23:14:05

Once its listed with ATF, you can not change a rifle to a pistol; only to an SBR. You can change a pistol to an SBR or rifle.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Post by **allingeneral** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 07:32:22

MarcSpaz wrote:Once its listed with ATF, you can not change a rifle to a pistol; only to an SBR. You can change a pistol to an SBR or rifle.

I had no idea about this, personally. Can you cite a legal source for clarity?

MarcSpaz · Post by **MarcSpaz** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 13:42:56

I'll see if I can find it in writing. I was told verbally by an ATF LEO I work with about 2 years ago. Had the same question. He said something about the Gun Control Act... not NFA.

MarcSpaz · Post by **MarcSpaz** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 14:33:15

Okay... just talked to my ATF contact. Looks like I gave some bad info.

He said there is no specific code... but rather it is the current interpretation of the Gun Control Act and the National Firearms Act by ATF. He said you can submit a Form 1 and make the request, but the Technology Branch will likely reject it.

He is saying a hand gun is a gun designed to be fired with one hand. When a pistol is redesigned to be fired with two hands, it now falls into a category of "All Other Weapons".

He also explained that the current interpretation is, if a weapon is designed as a hand gun, you can add a fore grip and/or stock, and it is now registered as and NFA restricted hand gun under the AOW classification, but still a handgun, not a SBR or rifle.

He also said if you have a rifle that is made to be a rifle and convert it to a SBR, it is still a rifle. If you convert it into a hand gun (pistol) that moves it into the NFA AOW sub-class because it is a weapon made from a rifle and still not a hand gun.

So essentially, once a weapon is classed as a pistol or rifle, it stays in that class of weapon. As you make modifications to it that fall under the NFA, then you have to file with ATF and pay the tax stamp... but no, you can't register a pistol as a rifle or a rifle as a pistol. Any modifications controlled by the NFA put the weapon in the NFA restricted sub-class of "All Other Weapons" (AOW).

FiremanBob · Post by **FiremanBob** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 14:50:39

It's amazing that our country can prosper at all with the hundreds of thousands of such stupid regulations imposed on its citizens.

0ne5hot · Post by **0ne5hot** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 15:25:15

MarcSpaz wrote:Okay... just talked to my ATF contact. Looks like I gave some bad info.

He said there is no specific code... but rather it is the current interpretation of the Gun Control Act and the National Firearms Act by ATF. He said you can submit a Form 1 and make the request, but the Technology Branch will likely reject it.

He is saying a hand gun is a gun designed to be fired with one hand. When a pistol is redesigned to be fired with two hands, it now falls into a category of "All Other Weapons".

He also explained that the current interpretation is, if a weapon is designed as a hand gun, you can add a fore grip and/or stock, and it is now registered as and NFA restricted hand gun under the AOW classification, but still a handgun, not a SBR or rifle.

He also said if you have a rifle that is made to be a rifle and convert it to a SBR, it is still a rifle. If you convert it into a hand gun (pistol) that moves it into the NFA AOW sub-class because it is a weapon made from a rifle and still not a hand gun.

So essentially, once a weapon is classed as a pistol or rifle, it stays in that class of weapon. As you make modifications to it that fall under the NFA, then you have to file with ATF and pay the tax stamp... but no, you can't register a pistol as a rifle or a rifle as a pistol. Any modifications controlled by the NFA put the weapon in the NFA restricted sub-class of "All Other Weapons" (AOW).

Utah · Post by **Utah** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 16:03:57

If the lower is stripped then either can be built...no considered either UNTIL put together.

scrubber3 · Post by **scrubber3** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 16:07:04

You can do whatever you want with it. Plain and simple. If you SBR it, get an NFA tax stamp. If you don't know what that is, don't worry about it, just keep the barrel 16" or more. A lower is nothing more than a receiver and that's how it's classified. You can do whatever you want with it. You do not have to tell anyone what you've done with it. Especially in VA.

Per: Me, I work as a Class 3 dealer(under someone else's FFL) and have been for 3 years now. I've a VA State Police seller ID number. I'm a part time instutor, RSO, and AR armorer...

Edit: do not send a damn form one to the ATF. That's bad info. Nothing has been registered anywhere concerning what the receiver is since the manufacturer classifies what it is and it's just a receiver. Doesn't matter what it was shipped as since the ATF doesn't have that info only the seller. Which, by the way is wrong, but doesn't matter because it's a receiver. Do what you want with it.

MarcSpaz · Post by **MarcSpaz** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 18:50:06

Dude, that is really bad advice. He bought it new in Va, which means he did all the federal and state paper work. Part of that paperwork hase the weapon info. If the seller put Rifle for the type, the there is state and federal record that it is a rifle. If it said Hand Gun or Pistol, then there is state and federal record that its a hand gun.

Depending on what that paperwork says, different GSA and NFA laws apply.

Unless you like the idea of going to jail and getting a costly fine, I would be very careful. You get in any legal trouble with that weapon or if that weapons legallity is questioned for any reason, it could get much worse.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

jdonovan · Post by **jdonovan** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 20:38:47

SCrubber has it right. the atf HAS NO RECORD of what the over the counter sale was recorded as.

In fact one of the forms you fill out, the dealer side HAS no option for 'unfinished firearm' only rifle/pistol/shotgun.

The firearm becomes a rifle when an accessory designed to permit stabilization by the shoulder is attached.

Mark, haven't you been told NUMEROUS times

DONT

ASK

COPS

FOR

LEGAL

ADVICE

Ask them where a good spot for lunch is, ask a lawyer for legal advice.

MarcSpaz · Post by **MarcSpaz** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 21:13:24

hahahahaha I hear you. I been drinking the Kool Aid again.

Here is my concern... GSA and NFA say that the 100% machined lower, with no parts in it, legally is the firearm. That firearm, fully assembled or not, needs a classification in order to be sold as a firearm. The form 4473 has 3 options; Hand Gun, Long Gun, and Other firearm. Other Firearm can include a lower receiver.

Well, what if the seller/dealer marks that form as a rifle or pistol rather than other? You say that the federal and state government don't get that info, but the dealer is required to keep that paperwork for 20 years. I my mind, there is a full blown "new gun sale registry" owned by the federal government. Its just the the manufacture and seller are holding the paper work.

If a gun is recovered during the investigation of a death, the LEO go the the manufacturer and say, "What store did this got to?". They go to the store and say "who did you sell this to?". Now they are knocking on your door.

If that gun was marked as a pistol and you have a stock on it and you didn't register it as an NFA item... or if it was registered as a rifle and there is a 7" barrel, there is going to be a problem, no?

Maybe I am being paranoid or misunderstanding what is going on and going about this all wrong.

jdonovan · Post by **jdonovan** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 22:17:04

MarcSpaz wrote: Well, what if the seller/dealer marks that form as a rifle or pistol rather than other? You say that the federal and state government don't get that info, but the dealer is required to keep that paperwork for 20 years. I my mind, there is a full blown "new gun sale registry" owned by the federal government. Its just the the manufacture and seller are holding the paper work.

What if the sale in the OP's case, wasn't the first over the counter transfer at a dealer?

What if the 1st sale recorded it as a pistol, it was never built, and sold to another dealer, and the 2nd dealer recorded it as a rifle when sold. Which is it?

What you can not seem to grasp is, that It does not matter that some box was checked on some transfer form.

Here is the law that matters... 18 USC 921

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Here is your challenge:

Find me a law; ANY law; that says

Rifle: firearm transferred on form 4473 where box "rifle" is checked

MarcSpaz · Post by **MarcSpaz** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 22:29:28

I absolutely 100% agree in every way shape and form; and if President Obama, Eric Holder and the rest of the Justice department were honest, honorable men and the SCOTUS was not riddled with corrupt, activist, liberal judges, I wouldn't be presenting the questions; nor would I be so apprehensive.

The problem is, the Judicial branch is on this kick of... well, it doesn't matter what the text of the law "actually" says. We are going to base our opinions on what we think the "spirit" of the law is and "what we think" Congress meant to do when they passed the bill.

Again... am I being paranoid?

2k05gt · Post by **2k05gt** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 22:37:07

I am not sure if this is pertinent information but as a FFL-03 (C&R) Holder I got a ton of rules and regulation books from the ATF
and one section was on changing the firearm (922R Compliance) and by adding a 25 round Magazine to a SKS rifle for instance would change the compliance of the rifle unless a majority of the parts were New /US Made parts were also changed. now this my be for safety of a C&R malfunctioning and popping off 25 rounds with one trigger pull with a sticky firing pin.

The ATF posted the following ruling. IT says once a rifle always a rifle (or SBR), you can not convert a pistol into a rifle and then back to a pistol. The converting back and forth only applies to a few specialty items like the TC or the rifle uppers that work with a glock lower. For an AR once it is a rifle you cannot ever legally put a pistol buffer tube on it.

See rule ATF Rul. 2011-4
http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-ru ... 2011-4.pdf

It doesn't matter that its stripped or not ... it matters how it is logged on the paperwork when it is sold.

Read the ENTIRE ruling on Form 4473-1 http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download ... 4473-1.pdf

The scary thing to me is if you were to buy an AR pistol that the seller had put together themselves, how do you know what that lower is supposed to be?
If you ever get harassed by the feds, or maybe even local LEO, and they trace the serial back to the FFL you got it from, and look at that 4473 and it says rifle, that would not be good, how would you defend yourself on those grounds?

MarcSpaz · Post by **MarcSpaz** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 23:07:07

Your statement supports my info from my ATF friend AND you get my point about the risk involved.

Even as the original purchaser, unless I look and confirm the form with my signature has the correct classification, I'm not taking the FFL's word for it. (no offense meant to our FFL friends of course)

0ne5hot · Post by **0ne5hot** » Fri, 25 Jul 2014 23:10:02

I'm pretty sure this will muddy the warters some more...but all the lowers that I currently have state that they are a "Rifle" near the serial number, I have seen lowers that had Pistol instead of Rifle in the same location. Or have they changed recently and new lowers do not have this marked on them anymore. Like how most newer lowers now state multi-caliber or do not have a caliber listed, because AR barrels have the caliber/twist rate listed on them.

MarcSpaz · Post by **MarcSpaz** » Sat, 26 Jul 2014 04:02:41

I have 3 AR's, all less than 3 years old. None of mine have that marking. I wonder if it a brand thing or if the industry was doing that for a time. Either way, that could make it hard to explain away if you had them built out as a pistol.

I have a ton of respect for you guys. I learn something daily from you... but I have to disagree with some of you until I hear different from an attorney that deals with this stuff or a federal prosecutor.

Discounting completely what my ATF LEO friend said, and based solely on the info I have seen in the form of the current ATF publications and case law, if you have a rifle that was originally made to be a rifle and convert it to a hand gun or pistol (generally speaking, not legally) that means the weapon is now an NFA "weapon made from a rifle" and requires a tax stamp.

So, that said... regardless of what the seller sent it to you as in the transfer... what the hell is it really? LOL The answer really goes back to manufacturing classification. I don't know if the ATF has a record from the maker, but you should be able to call the manufacturer and ask them what it was classed as. IMHO, if it was classed as "Other", you are good to go either way. Classed as rifle... its a rifle. Classed as pistol/handgun... its a handgun.

SB... Didn't expect such a thorough review did you? We have a great group of guys here. The proof of that is, disagreement without arguing and the very obvious fact that everyone is clearly looking out for your best interest. That's why I love this site. You guys rock.

scrubber3 · Post by **scrubber3** » Sat, 26 Jul 2014 05:06:29

Is it still just a stripped lower? If it is, sell it as such, but considering you don't need to do paperwork to sell it in VA, it's a moot matter. If you sell it and have to ship it to an FFL, let the FFL worry about it. They'll just label it as they see it, a receiver. That's what the manufacturer labeled it as anyway and that's what the paperwork they have on it says. This is actually a black and white situation and no need in stirring up the mud in the water.

Edit: you can build what you want considering it's a receiver and that's how the manufacturer has it marked as.

Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF