Troops having malfunctioning weapons?

[06bolton5pt3]

just read this story. Sounded like the M4's only but read the end where the M249 also had the same problem......make me think its an ammo problem?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,563883,00.html

[VBshooter]

They are looking into it..The two events are very similar,, Delta Forces are using a new H&K 416 which is said to be more reliable,The M4 has had a good run and may or may not get replaced. Being supplied to the services by Colt will have far reaching impact on it's future.. This is a short blog peice describing the issues in vietnam between the M14 and M16 and the ensuing fight over which to use...Could very well happen now if more evidence of M4 problems occur.

There seems to be a bitter fight going on between supporters of the M4, made by Colt, and the HK416 made by Germany's Heckler & Koch.

Field tests seem to show the HK416 superior on the issue of reliability and parts lifetime, and the US Delta Forces have already switched over.

I mention this only because of a huge scandal that happened during Vietnam where Pentagon officers favored the M-14 over the then-new M-16, because the M-14 used the same 7.62 mm ammunition as the M-30 machine gun, making logistics simpler.

There were also, as later uncovered in the congressional investigation, some covert financial ties between the manufacturer of the M-14 and those officers promoting its adoption as the standard US infantry battle rifle.

The scandal happened when the M-16 was sent into field tests in Vietnam, but with ammunition intentionally manufactured to not conform to the original Armalite specifications. The wrong propellant was used, not only in the shape of the granules which altered the burn time, but in the high residue composition which increased fouling of the barrel. This led to a rash of breakages and jammings and quite a few young Americans were found dead in the Vietnam jungles with partly disassembled M-16s in their hands.

Tests showed that with the correct ammunition, the Armalite M-16 not only was reliable, but the .223 bullet tumbled on hitting the target, causing a more serious wound while staying within treaty limits on "legal" ammunition in war zones.

Congress blocked the Army's decision to go with the M-14 and investigated, found out that the field tests had been set up intentionally to fail and discredit the Armalite M-16 and hand the contract to the M-14 manufacturer, Springfield Armory. Congress over-rode the US Army and ordered them to deploy the much less expensive but more effective M-16.

The US Army "retaliated" by requiring the M-16 by changed by adding a "Forward Assist Plunger", that oddball and rather useless device sticking out of the upper receiver at an angle at the right-rear. It's inclusion increased the difficulty of manufacture of the M-16, the price, and is generally viewed by expert shooters as totally useless. The US Army rationale was that soldiers had a deep psychological need to feel a traditional bolt handle on their rifle, but most soldiers found it simply added weight for no good reason. On those very rare occasions when one needed to manually force the bolt closed, this is easily done with the thumb through the ejection port.

While the US Army, never able to admit error, still requires the forward assist plunger on all M-16 derived weapons, upper receivers without this dunsil are available from after-market suppliers for sport-owners of these rifles.

So, as we see another vested financial battle over weapons procurement shaping up, and we start seeing American kids dying with malfunctioning weapons, I have to wonder if history isn't repeating itself here.

.

[Vahunter]

I may be wrong but I have never believed the 'tumble' of a .223 round.

[dustoffmedic]

It all comes down to daily maintenance of the weapon. I have carried the M4 through two deployments and have used it, NOT just carried it in actual engagements. If you take the time to clean and inspect everyday (like you should with any weapon) there are no issues. I had two failure to feed issues and that is just life in a dusty and dirty armpit of the world. I would like the Army to adapt the H&K 416 because than any idiot can fire it an not clean it and it will function for awhile. Apparently we have to adapt the equipment to the dumbest Soldier.

I really believe that if Leaders took the time to ensure the Soldiers were conducting proper maintenance on their weapons we wouldn't have news stories like this one. Remember that nothing and I mean nothing is infallible! Take care of your weapon and it will take care of you!

[MuShuGordon]

Are the H&K guns made in Germany too? So, we are helping out their economy by buying them from them? Or, we would be helping out the American gun company by buying weapons for them? Hmm, Seems like an economic predicament. However, since I am about to enter the NAVY (when I get cleared by the necessary doctors), I want the best rifle. Actually, if I do end up in the SEALs as I want to, I think that I will have quite a few to use depending on the mission. And, I would have to say already, I am quite impressed with the H&K weapons thus far.

[zephyp]

It all comes down to daily maintenance of the weapon. I have carried the M4 through two deployments and have used it, NOT just carried it in actual engagements. If you take the time to clean and inspect everyday (like you should with any weapon) there are no issues. I had two failure to feed issues and that is just life in a dusty and dirty armpit of the world. I would like the Army to adapt the H&K 416 because than any idiot can fire it an not clean it and it will function for awhile. Apparently we have to adapt the equipment to the dumbest Soldier.

I really believe that if Leaders took the time to ensure the Soldiers were conducting proper maintenance on their weapons we wouldn't have news stories like this one. Remember that nothing and I mean nothing is infallible! Take care of your weapon and it will take care of you!

Keeping a weapon squeaky clean isnt always expedient under combat conditions. I cant understand why our government hasnt gotten smart and given our boys a weapon that works reliably even if its dirty. The Russians did. We hand out money like its candy to everybody but them. Personally I'd rather see my tax dollars buy decent rifles and body armor for soldiers than to some jerk too lazy to walk to the mailbox for their welfare check.

[VBshooter]

Sadly it seems that our politicians put their earmarks and districts first and the needs of the troops a secondary concern at best. The latest round of arguments over Afgahanistan bears that out. Throw a congressional piss contest in there over weapons and it would get real naasty...

[zephyp]

Sadly it seems that our politicians put their earmarks and districts first and the needs of the troops a secondary concern at best. The latest round of arguments over Afgahanistan bears that out. Throw a congressional piss contest in there over weapons and it would get real naasty...

Yup. Leave our troops out in the cold while they're down range and meantime they squabble over military bases because that means jobs in their districts. Makes them look good. Too many people assume that when we say we have the best equipped military in the world means they have the best available that money can buy - NOT. I've spent too many years around DOD acquisition programs and know what goes on. Yes, we start out trying to give them the best - but like a general buddy I once had told me - "DK, a steer TRIES." In other words we can try all we want but it aint gonna happen unless somebody gets in there and does some serious surgery - BTW THATS WE THE PEOPLE.

[MuShuGordon]

Yup. Leave our troops out in the cold while they're down range and meantime they squabble over military bases because that means jobs in their districts. Makes them look good. Too many people assume that when we say we have the best equipped military in the world means they have the best available that money can buy - NOT. I've spent too many years around DOD acquisition programs and know what goes on. Yes, we start out trying to give them the best - but like a general buddy I once had told me - "DK, a steer TRIES." In other words we can try all we want but it aint gonna happen unless somebody gets in there and does some serious surgery - BTW THATS WE THE PEOPLE.

We, the people can only get in there and do so much really. We are not lining the pockets of the ones in power and it will take a complete reform to get the ones out who are looking out for the common good and not their common bank account.

[zephyp]

Yup. Leave our troops out in the cold while they're down range and meantime they squabble over military bases because that means jobs in their districts. Makes them look good. Too many people assume that when we say we have the best equipped military in the world means they have the best available that money can buy - NOT. I've spent too many years around DOD acquisition programs and know what goes on. Yes, we start out trying to give them the best - but like a general buddy I once had told me - "DK, a steer TRIES." In other words we can try all we want but it aint gonna happen unless somebody gets in there and does some serious surgery - BTW THATS WE THE PEOPLE.

We, the people can only get in there and do so much really. We are not lining the pockets of the ones in power and it will take a complete reform to get the ones out who are looking out for the common good and not their common bank account.

?????????????? Horse Hockey!!!!!!!! Our Founders gave us everything we need to keep the government on the straight and narrow. How do you think gays have gotten all their "rights?" They do what we havent. They ban together across the country and they shout and scream until they get their way. Conservatives can do the same thing. We are beginning to do that now but we need more momentum and more people involved. This is the very thing I've been harping on. Its called the democratic process and it works if properly employed.

Before you become a SEAL you will join the Navy. Before you do that you will have to raise your right hand and swear to protect and defend the Constitution. If you really think "we the people can only get in there and do so much" then you need to go study the Constitution you will soon be swearing an oath to. Complete reform will only come when enough of we the people do the same thing gays have done. Btw, the only reason I'm singling out gays out is the obama speech this past weekend and the gay march in DC.

</rant>

[MuShuGordon]

I agree zephyp, however, I also meant that there is a lot of stuff that goes on that we do not know about. Like the Iraq War for example, did we really invade to find nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction? Or was there some gain in another aspect for our leaders to choose to do so. I am just saying that, we the people, can only stand up for what we know and what we want. If we don't know about something, do we have a way to stand up and correct it?

I could not agree with you more in what you say, and I will stand up and defend our Constitution until I die. However, if, we the people, want a handgun and the constitution gives us the right to bear arms, why can't I own a fully automatic weapon as easily as a shotgun? Why are guns from other countries, Russia mostly, so hard to get into the United States? Why are certain kinds of ammunition banned over here? Isn't it my right to possess all that I may want in that aspect? I joined the NRA, I have called my state congressmen (women included) and I would like to think, I am doing my part.

SO, in that aspect, I think that we can only get in there and do so much. We do not have the power to remove officials from office, as they should be sometimes. We do not have the authority to walk into the White House, question them and then give them advice on the issues brought up. We can call our representatives, senators, law makers, and whoever else as much as we want to, but sometimes it just isn't enough.

I think that the people as a whole, are not unified. We have many different races, religions, sects, and ideas that sometimes keep us apart when we shouldn't be. We should embrace our fellow American and do what is best for ALL of us. Not the elite group that sits on the top of the hierarchy.

When we can draw up petitions and get people removed from office for not following what they promised then I will say the people can do anything as a whole.

[VBshooter]

Look at the last election and try telling us that people are not united.Enough of them got together to elect a pied piper of socialist crap using the disguise of "change". That was an organized effort that worked for them quite well..One of the by products of that election is that now, the other side (us) is getting organized and 2010 should bear that unity out. Our side is coming together daily and it is gaining momentum quickly. About the war effort, there are just some things that should not be out there advertised like new cars, National Security has to be maintained at all costs.There are aspects that the public at large doesn't need to know. Granted there are politicians lining their pockets and some are just power mad. These are the ones that need to be voted out, They actually do have laws in some states that allow removal of them but using them is like breeding elephants.. Takes a long time and makes a lot of noise. It is agreed some aspects of gun control should be eased and others removed completely. As DK cited We The People are the answer and the founders gave us the tools we need,It's up to us to get up and use them.A long hard battle is ahead for those willing to face it. A generation may pass before the much needed change is realized.If we don't start now it may never happen. People are indeed coming together,, This site is a good example.. It started out with a few people and within a couple months it has over 700 members and countless guests...Nothing worth fighting for ever comes quickly or easily. It requires vigilance and total commitment to the fight that is facing us now.Those that sit idly by while continuing to complain have no voice until they stand and face the challenges before us by standing with us.

[MuShuGordon]

I am not going to Quote your post VBShooter in order to keep clutter down, but I agree with you 100% hands down. I, however, do believe that Palin hurt McCain quite a bit in his campaign, my opinion only. It seems to me, like true change will be completed when the American people are all on the same page. We may not have the same beliefs, but as long as we watch out for one another and the greater good, great things are liable to come from it.

[VBshooter]

Palin may have been a minus, but a lot people were really pissed off after 8 years of George Bush, The Dems had a better than 50/50 of winning going in . The Republicans really underrated Obama .He preached a slogan and unfortunatley a lot of sheeple followed him.. McCain was not very well received as a candidate,, stupid things like his age and silly policies (some that Obama is using now) hurt him. Jimmy Carter losing gave us Reagan and hopefully Obama getting tanked will yeild a good Republican candidate,,If they do any of their dumb choices again they'll get their butt kicked... You are right that we ALL have to get together and stand united to bring back the America that we were and not the socialized craphole that those in office are attempting to make it.

[Palladin]

I may be wrong but I have never believed the 'tumble' of a .223 round.

Simple test - Put 10 -20 rounds 55gr FMJ thru an empty cardboard box, say 12' to 20" from front to back, and note entry holes and exit holes... I think you'll be impressed. And that's just from penetrating one layer of cardboard - I shudder to think of what it'll do tearing thru fabric and gear and differing layers of muscle tissue...

...The article I read in the Free Lance Star stated the soldiers weapons were white hot when they failed... That's asking a lot of any shoulder weapon, IMHO.

(Free-Lance article was less forthcoming w/ details than the Fox story quoted - which I just finished reading...)

[zephyp]

I may be wrong but I have never believed the 'tumble' of a .223 round.

Simple test - Put 10 -20 rounds 55gr FMJ thru an empty cardboard box, say 12' to 20" from front to back, and note entry holes and exit holes... I think you'll be impressed. And that's just from penetrating one layer of cardboard - I shudder to think of what it'll do tearing thru fabric and gear and differing layers of muscle tissue...

...The article I read in the Free Lance Star stated the soldiers weapons were white hot when they failed... That's asking a lot of any shoulder weapon, IMHO.

(Free-Lance article was less forthcoming w/ details than the Fox story quoted - which I just finished reading...)

Henry when you said tumble I thought you mean as it goes down range. The tumble effect happens once it strikes something soft and squishy is part of what it so devastating. Like we were talking the other day about .22. They go in one place and hit bone then go somewhere else. Also, the tumble effect is much more pronounced in ball ammunition used by military. Plenty of direct and collateral damage. Goes in the chest and might come out the back or maybe out a leg doing damage all along the way.