Auctioneers selling firearms

[wpshooter]

A company which is going to be holding a public firearms auction in Bedford, Virginia is doing something which I believe amounts to an erosion of Virginian's second amendment rights.

My question is, would it be a violation of this forums rules for me to post the particulars of this situation and also to request that members of this forum consider boycotting the public auction that going to be held in Bedford ?

Thanks.

[OakRidgeStars]

Post the details and a link if possible. I'd like to read it.

[wpshooter]

Post the details and a link if possible. I'd like to read it.

Below is the ad header as it appears in the email that I received from them yesterday.

Please note the use of the word "REGISTRATION" in the line regarding FFL dealer being onsite.

At all of these auctions that have previously been held at the Bedford National Guard armory there were no back ground check (or REGISTRATION - as they are now calling it), you just bid on the gun and if you won it, you paid for it and it was yours to take home.

I have checked with several sources and from what I am finding, there has been NO law change that would mandate this change in procedures for these sales. Please note that this is basically a large consolidation estate sale of guns (not a public / FFL dealer - gun SHOW & sale like those held at the Roanoke & Salem civic centers) and previous to this point these auction sales at the armory were treated the same as if this was a PRIVATE (hand to hand) sale of a firearm from one private citizen to another private citizen, i.e. no background check / REGISTRATION.

Ad header per email received from J.A. Pillow auction company is below:

ABSOLUTE AUCTION

Saturday March 29th @ 10:00 AM

WINCHESTER, BROWNING, REMINGTON, COLT, SMITH & WESSON, H & R, MARLIN, SPRINGFIELD, RUGER, KIMBER, STEVENS, FAUSTI, TAURUS, SIG



SAUER, FOX, W.W. GREENER, SPENCER, THOMPSON, GLOCK, ITHACA, WEATHERBY, WALTHER, LYCHBURG Wm. FISHER RIFLE, AMMO, KNIVES,

RELOADING EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND MORE!



Sale held at the Bedford National Guard Armory, 29A Omaha Beach Circle, Bedford, VA 24523

FFL Dealer onsite for registration.

Details coming soon!



Thank You! P.S. - The auction company does not yet have this particular sale listed on their website, so I can not give an actual Internet link for this sale but you can find their website by just googling the auction company name.

[MarcSpaz]

Maybe they have an FFL on site this time because they are auctioning items from a trust or business such as SBR's, automatic weapons or suppressors, which require registration by law.

Did you give them a buzz to get details?

[wpshooter]

Maybe they have an FFL on site this time because they are auctioning items from a trust or business such as SBR's, automatic weapons or suppressors, which require registration by law.

Did you give them a buzz to get details?

Yes, I did.

No nothing has changed from the previous auctions.

When I asked them if there was any legal changed that required that they do this, they hee & hawed around a bit and then just said that all of the auction companys were doing this !!!

In any case, I am "suggesting" that second amendment regarding Virginians consider boycotting this auction and any similar to it.

Thanks.

[OakRidgeStars]

If a dealer is selling the guns then the "registration" they mention would be the usual ATF/VA background check paperwork. Since no actual registration exists in Virginia, nothing else could be possible. I don't think they have created their own forms for any other purpose than what's required by VA law.

[wpshooter]

If a dealer is selling the guns then the "registration" they mention would be the usual ATF/VA background check paperwork. Since no actual registration exists in Virginia, nothing else could be possible. I don't think they have created their own forms for any other purpose than what's required by VA law.

First I believe that you are wrong. There has never been any background checks performed at these types of sales in the past, therefore, I don't think there is any requirement by Virginia law that they have to be done.

These sales have always been considered the same as a person to person private sales. IMO this change is due to pressure that has been placed on the auction companies by that newly elected governor and attorney general in Richmond and is just a little step down the road to elimination of all private sales of firearms in Virginia, the creation of a Virginia and eventual national gun registry, to be followed shortly by confiscation off all privately held firearms. I hope I am wrong about this but I sort of doubt it. Study history !!!!

Again, hoping strong supporters of the 2nd admendment will boycott these auctions.

Thanks.

[MarcSpaz]

Sorry my friend, but you are mistaken... looks like they are obligated by federal law. For auctions to sell firearms... any firearms... they must be a licensed FFL and all federal and state laws apply.

18 U.S.C. § 923 (a): ENGAGING IN THE BUSINESS OF DEALING IN FIREARMS (Auctioneers)
Auctioneers who regularly conduct consignment-type auctions of firearms, for example, held every 1-2 months, on behalf of firearms owners where the auctioneer takes possession of the firearms pursuant to a consignment contract with the owner of the firearms giving the auctioneer authority to sell the firearms and providing for a commission to be paid by the owner upon sale of the firearms are required to obtain a license as a dealer in firearms.

Section 923(a), Title 18, U.S.C., provides that no person shall engage in the business of dealing in firearms until he has filed an application and received a license to do so. Section 922(a)(1), Title 18, U.S.C., provides that it is unlawful for any person, other than a licensee, to engage in the business of dealing in firearms. Licensees generally may not conduct business away from their licensed premises.

The term “dealer” is defined at 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(11)(A) to include any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail. The term “engaged in the business” as applied to a dealer in firearms means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. A dealer can be engaged in the business” without taking title to the firearms that are sold. However, the term does not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms. 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C).

From ATF Rule 96-2

Persons who conduct estate-type auctions at which the auctioneer assists the estate in selling the estate’s firearms, and the firearms are possessed and transferred by the estate, do not require a Federal firearms license....

...Persons who regularly conduct consignment-type auctions, for example, held every 1-2 months, where the auctioneer takes possession of the firearms pursuant to a consignment contract giving the auctioneer the exclusive right and authority to sell the firearms at a location, time and date to be selected by the auctioneer and providing for a commission to be paid upon sale are required to obtain a license as a dealer in firearms pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 923(a). [ATFB 96-2 101]

[wpshooter]

Sorry my friend, but you are mistaken... looks like they are obligated by federal law. For auctions to sell firearms... any firearms... they must be a licensed FFL and all federal and state laws apply.

No I think you are wrong because these firearms sales are covered by the ATF section you quoted which says that they are NOT required to be a FFL dealer. These auctions have been held for MANY YEARS without any background check paper work being done on the purchasers and I don't think that if they had been required during those many years that they authorities would have made sure the checks were performed. No, I think this is just a matter of the new (anti-gun) attorney general of Virginia using strong arm tactics to badger the auctioneers into performing the background checks !!!

Thanks.

[MarcSpaz]

Why did you start another thread about the same thing? Very strange behavior.

*EDIT - the two threads have been merged. [MGMT]

[MarcSpaz]

wpshooter... you appear antagonistic. Are you looking to stir the pot and get people worked up? It seems like you are less interested in hearing legit explanations for what has/is taken place and more interested in putting these people on blast while trying to get people to boycott the business.

Do you have ulterior motives?

http://vagunforum.net/general-discussio ... 21466.html

[Reverenddel]

In truth, I have had it go both ways. An FFL on site, and without one because it's a "private" auction where the sale is between two individuals, with the auctioneer only setting up the sale.

(shrugs) When questions arise? I say call the AG's office. That's why they're there.

[jdonovan]

wpshooter... you appear antagonistic.

yep, the post/new-member behavior has all the warning signs for someone who has had a bad experience with a company and is now trying to selectively present information to work this group up over something that is really a non-issue.

[wpshooter]

Why did you start another thread about the same thing? Very strange behavior.

*EDIT - the two threads have been merged. [MGMT]

The original thread was LOCKED, I have no idea why, perhaps you could look into.

Thanks.

[wpshooter]

wpshooter... you appear antagonistic. Are you looking to stir the pot and get people worked up? It seems like you are less interested in hearing legit explanations for what has/is taken place and more interested in putting these people on blast while trying to get people to boycott the business.

Do you have ulterior motives?

http://vagunforum.net/general-discussio ... 21466.html

No, not at all.

I am just giving the posters information which perhaps they were not aware of. Some of them are giving general answers which do not apply to this particular situation. If they need more details as to the situation, I would be glad to supply to them before they give general pat answers.

I know for a FACT that there had not been any background checks done at these sales in the past and am just looking for an explanation as to whether there is a LEGAL basis for the change. I don't think there really is any, I highly suspect that this is political pressure being put on the auctioneers without any basis in statute law.

Thanks.

[grumpyMSG]

No, not at all.

I am just giving the posters information which perhaps they were not aware of. Some of them are giving general answers which do not apply to this particular situation. If they need more details as to the situation, I would be glad to supply to them before they give general pat answers.

I know for a FACT that there had not been any background checks done at these sales in the past and am just looking for an explanation as to whether there is a LEGAL basis for the change. I don't think there really is any, I highly suspect that this is political pressure being put on the auctioneers without any basis in statute law.

Thanks.

wpshooter, you asked for an explanation, several people have offered reasonable explanations, MarcSpaz even looked it up as to the codes involved. Are the codes covering this auction open to interpretation? Most definitely. I can't think of the last auction I went to where there wasn't a form of registration involved, if ever. The auctioneer starts to sell the item, accepting bids and ends with sold to number 37!! How do they know who number 37 is? It is because you have to pre-register. If the auction company has decided to start doing background checks and transfers through an FFL dealer to reduce their potential liability, that is their prerogative. It may have to do with their umbrella insurance policy or the recommendation of their attorney. If you think it somehow limits your second amendment rights, feel free to not participate in the auction.

[wpshooter]

No, not at all.

I am just giving the posters information which perhaps they were not aware of. Some of them are giving general answers which do not apply to this particular situation. If they need more details as to the situation, I would be glad to supply to them before they give general pat answers.

I know for a FACT that there had not been any background checks done at these sales in the past and am just looking for an explanation as to whether there is a LEGAL basis for the change. I don't think there really is any, I highly suspect that this is political pressure being put on the auctioneers without any basis in statute law.

Thanks.

wpshooter, you asked for an explanation, several people have offered reasonable explanations, MarcSpaz even looked it up as to the codes involved. Are the codes covering this auction open to interpretation? Most definitely. I can't think of the last auction I went to where there wasn't a form of registration involved, if ever. The auctioneer starts to sell the item, accepting bids and ends with sold to number 37!! How do they know who number 37 is? It is because you have to pre-register. If the auction company has decided to start doing background checks and transfers through an FFL dealer to reduce their potential liability, that is their prerogative. It may have to do with their umbrella insurance policy or the recommendation of their attorney. If you think it somehow limits your second amendment rights, feel free to not participate in the auction.

Grumpy:

Auctions being held in whatever part of Virginia that you are in must be different from the ones that have been held for years & years around Bedford county. I have never before see any type of background check performed on the purchaser of a firearm at one of those auctions.

As for the "pre-registering" before the auction that you mention, this is mearly a way for the auction company to do their "bookkeeping, so to speak - like you say just to keep track what bidder has won what particular items - has nothing to do with a background check being performed on the purchaser of a firearm.

Yes, I do plan to boycott these auctions that are going to be performing a background check on what has always to this point been considered a person to person / arms length private transaction because this is just one more step in attempting to get the public to accept the banning of all private sales of firearms without a background check. And I am certainly not saying that background checks do not service any purpose BUT there are factions in this state and this country with their ultimate purpose being to see that eventually all guns in this country are in a national registry and once that that is accomplished the next step is going to be confiscation off all privately held firearms. Whomever does not believe that is really naive.

P.S. - I have zero problems with the auction company that is doing this because I certainly do not think that they are in favor of having these background checks performed anymore than I am. Like I have said they are being forced to do this by outside parties.

Thanks.

[skeeterss0]

P.S. - I have zero problems with the auction company that is doing this because I certainly do not think that they are in favor of having these background checks performed anymore than I am. Like I have said they are being forced to do this by outside parties.



Read more: http://vagunforum.net/general-discussio ... z2wyQ9TJ2W

Then the outside parties should be named and boycotted or complained about/to not the auction itself.

[wpshooter]

P.S. - I have zero problems with the auction company that is doing this because I certainly do not think that they are in favor of having these background checks performed anymore than I am. Like I have said they are being forced to do this by outside parties.



Read more: http://vagunforum.net/general-discussio ... z2wyQ9TJ2W

Then the outside parties should be named and boycotted or complained about/to not the auction itself.

If you would like to try complaining about this to the political anti-gun big heads down in Richmond, then all I can say is GOOD LUCK !!! My thoughts are that our only good recourse is to not voluntarily play into their schemes.

Thanks.

[allingeneral]

Then the outside parties should be named and boycotted or complained about/to not the auction itself.

If you would like to try complaining about this to the political anti-gun big heads down in Richmond, then all I can say is GOOD LUCK !!! My thoughts are that our only good recourse is to not voluntarily play into their schemes.

Thanks.

wpshooter - I see where you're coming from here, but I'm not sure that a boycott of the auction house is the proper course of action. Also, it seems that you may have a dog in this fight in some way or another (and/or it's personal to you). Maybe an analysis of current law in this area to determine how it can be clarified in a positive manner for gun owners is in order.