SHTF - caliber and platform discussion

[scrubber3]

My Daniel Defense M4V1 topped with an aimpoint micro T-1 2MOA with a TLR-3 forward of the FSB using a lower 1/3rd co-witness via a DD mount and DD A1.5 rear sight. My back up is a BCM Recce 14 midlength with BUS and rail covers-that's it. I'll keep how many mags and rounds I've got to myself.

Taco pouches on a BDS PC with dump bag, first aid kit, cleaning rod, extra bolt, firing pin, cam pin, and some oil. A pouch on back with some 550 cord, and duct tape.

My secondary is a P226 Tacops with an M3 illuminator and 7 mags. my backup to that is a Glock 26 with even more mags.

A go bag and BOB with everything I need and nothing I don't. I'll travel light and fast of need be, but plan on sticking around as long as possible to let things die down. My European doberman keeps me company and warns off strangers just by looking at them.

That being said, I feel like 5.56 and 9mm for defensive purposes are ideal and allow you to move quick with more ammo than other calibers of defensive nature. A .22 will be absolutely needed to hunt same game and serve as a last resort weapon.

I've narrowed my calibers down substantially: 5.56, 9mm, and .22. IMHO these three calibers are ideal in a SHTF situation.

As far as optics and accessories go? Long range optics are worthless unless you're on the offensive or hunting. In a bad situation, you'll find that most won't last past a month anyway unless you've got a real Trijicon ACOG or Elcan... Or a good night or leupold. A red dot such as the aimpoint micro or comp M4 can be left on with a single battery on setting 7 for 5 years. Setting 6 for 8 years. Both offering more than enough usable dot. These are also nearly indestructible and the micro weighs practically nothing. If you cannot afford a darn good optic for a survival or a true defensive firearm, then stick with irons. Personally, I'm good just past 400 meters with a true 2moa RDS and co-witness. Anything closer and I'll just avoid it. To be honest, I can just avoid about anything past 50 meters as long as I have cover. I don't mind waiting it out either.

This is just friendly advice for anyone that doesn't suffer from cognitive displacement.

What premises would allow you to drop someone at 400 meters but ignore them if they are closer? That just sounds like shitty behavior even for SHTF. The guy trying to rob you of all your goods isn't likely to do it at a quarter mile.

I didn't mean for it to imply that... I meant for it to imply that I'd engage anything within 50 meters if needed for defensive. Avoiding anything past that would be easy. I am capable of engaging out a little past 400 meters of need be, albeit I don't believe I'd have to. I just misplaced the words.

[BertMacklin]

Looking back I was somewhat unfair in my judgment. But sometimes I fear should such incidents occur if I am going to be dodging bullets at 600 yards when currently I'm not a threat to anybody past 100.

[scrubber3]

I wouldn't worry too much. Most hoodlums can't hit the side of a barn from 25 yards. They also don't have the equipment capable of doing much more than point blank engagements.

Those guys with garbage ARs that don't even know how to maintain them aren't going to be much of a threat either. Nor will the folks who don't train on their weapon systems often or even train physically... Firearms are tools, without an experienced operator with the physical and mental capacity to run one properly they aren't very effective. It's funny when someone thinks they could even remotely stand a chance in a firefight with a crappy rifle that they don't even know how to break down, have only taken it to the range once or twice, and doesn't even bother to take care of their own bodies... Poor souls, but hey I might need some battlefield pick up ammo so I'm not complaining.

[BertMacklin]

Good points but with a drawback as well. Gun ownership is on the rise, a lot of these people being new to the practice entirely. This in shtf is not good as they have enough to be dangerous, whether unfit or poorly outfitted, but not enough knowledge to provide for themselves or even work cohesively with others that do.

[MarcSpaz]

Most people don't get that. Even training for accuracy at a range isn't much help. Stationary shooter aiming at a stationary target doesn't do much at all. IMHO, to truly be affective you need training while firing on the move; going to and from covered positions; transitioning positions (prone/kneel/stand); tactical lean from behind cover; understanding fatal funnels and simple "slicing the pie" concepts. All that should be going on with random pop-up/pop-out targets. Its especially helpful if its a human with a weapon sending training rounds your way.

Like you said, being in shape is a must; even moderately. Not only will this help for armed assaults/defense situations, but with hand-to-hand combat as well. Knowing how to fight in a combination of styles is also a big plus... Using knifes, boxing, taekwondo, judo, jujitsu, etc. is a must if you run out of ammo. Some endurance and strength to do so is a must.

Even if you don't have hand-to-hand combat skills, you at least need to be in shape enough to hump a few hours and still have the ability to pick up your weapon. Most people think that 8 lbs doesn't sound like much, but after lugging it around all day and/or being in a fire fight for even for just a few minutes, that weapon can get pretty damn heavy to lift.

In a SHTF situation, I can see this being a real issue. I can see being in a situation where you have been hunting must of the day, hiking around, maybe got a kill and field dressed the catch. On the way back you run into a group of people who want to kill you to get your game because they haven't eaten in days. Being exhausted after a hunt, hiking and carrying your kill and gear... now you have to fight for your life. Not a far-fetched situation, I think.

Don't get me wrong. I don't thing people who aren't trained or in shape should be unarmed or should just give up. However, It is important to realize that if you are like me and have some physical disability or you are someone with little to no training and a crappy weapon... be a realist about what you can and should try to do.

[MarcSpaz]

Good points but with a drawback as well. Gun ownership is on the rise, a lot of these people being new to the practice entirely. This in shtf is not good as they have enough to be dangerous, whether unfit or poorly outfitted, but not enough knowledge to provide for themselves or even work cohesively with others that do.

I put these folks in the same group as the unarmed who think they are coming to my house when the SHTF. Unless they have medical or technical skills that can be put to use while unarmed, they have no value to me.

Although, depending on the expected duration of the brown fan moment (after earthquake, hurricane, etc.) I would likely offer to help/protect women and children or a whole family for a short-term.

[Mindflayer]

A guy at work knows some "preppers". He was telling me that they have no survival skills but do mock raids all the time. Their plan is - since they believe the collapse is imminent - to raid others, killing them if needed, to take their food and supplies. Needless to say, he put some distance between him and these guys. (Hmmm... occurs to me they could be members of this forum....)

Meanwhile, his plan is to grow some food, stockpile some food, make friends of like-minded good people, and train to defend.

In my mind, the latter plan holds water. Sure, you'll have some success with the raiding, but sooner or later you're going to run into a group that will defend themselves and you'll be out food, ammo, and probably numbers.

To the original topic, it's 5.56 for him as well.

[scrubber3]

It's unfortunate that some intend to raid others because they don't feel the need to prepare. I've taken steps to make sure i have food, water, medical, etc. to go along with my defensive preps. I pity any person or group desperate/dumb enough to attempt a raid on my dwelling.

[MarcSpaz]

The people you describe are criminals at best. They are likely criminals now since they declare their POA is to openly be career murderers and thieves and seem to think its a good idea. Good people don't conditionally believe murder and pilfering is bad.

People like that are the reason most folks I know will shoot on sight. Someone I talked to here on this forum told me "if you can contribute, come on over.... but you better call first."

[SHMIV]

Raiders. Bad plan. Even those with no moral and value system should see the folly in that. It's very short sighted.

If you don't possess the skills to survive long-term, why would you kill off those that do?

It seems that the raiders may have skills and supplies to be useful (foot soldiers can come in handy) but lack the moral fortitude to be trusted.

Someone should suggest uniforms to them, so that they are easily identifiable to eachother in a raid. Be a shame if they shot eachother. Of course, if they stand out to each other, they should stand out to the rest of us.

Of course, it's probably best to be friendly and be valuable to others, if prepping isn't an option for you, for whatever reason.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Reverenddel]

Agreed.

The process should be find people with similar views, and a certain set of skills. Cross train each other as best as possible. Then when things go bad? Become a commune... armed, and focused, but a commune for lack of a better term.

Don't wanna use the term "Compound", because that makes guv'mint types all f'cking nervous.

[scrubber3]

Rev, just say village...

[BertMacklin]

Good points but with a drawback as well. Gun ownership is on the rise, a lot of these people being new to the practice entirely. This in shtf is not good as they have enough to be dangerous, whether unfit or poorly outfitted, but not enough knowledge to provide for themselves or even work cohesively with others that do.

I put these folks in the same group as the unarmed who think they are coming to my house when the SHTF. Unless they have medical or technical skills that can be put to use while unarmed, they have no value to me.

Although, depending on the expected duration of the brown fan moment (after earthquake, hurricane, etc.) I would likely offer to help/protect women and children or a whole family for a short-term.

The unarmed can just be pushed to the side to starve but these guys are going to be pissed when things are harder than they plan, or didn't plan. When the bread runs out and no one helps them, they'll start taking potshots. Sure it might be with target ammo and they likely won't hit much but the volume of people is there.

[kelu]

AR15- nice, is the toy you know, sometimes malfunctions. Ammo around $400/1000.
AK47-ugly, is the toy I know, works better if dirty. Ammo around $200/1000.
I won't mention the effects of the 7.62 round...
Communist nostalgia

[MarcSpaz]

Your not kidding man. I hit a 1/2" thick steel plate at 100 yards with 7.62 NATO ball ammo and it went clean through like it hit paper. Some perpetrator rounds would be devastating.

[0ne5hot]

I have been trying recently to keep the number of calibers on hand to a minimum of commen caliber, especially for handguns, or at least ones that can use the same components bullets, powders, and primers.

My go pistol rounds at the moment are 45acp and .357mag because the first handguns I got were a S&W model 28 my dad gave me from back when he was a deputy on my 21st birthday, and a Rem 1911R1 I bought myself. I think I will be adding a full size glock in .40s&w, then get conversion barrels/mags to swap between 9mm/357sig, in the near future to round out the mix.

For long guns I have a lot more variety 22lr, .223/5.56, 6.8spc, .300BLK, 7.62x39, .308/7.62x51, 7.62x54R, .270win, 30-06, .458socom, 12ga, and 20ga....Okay I guess "variety" was a bad choice of words ...gotta love that 7.62

Might be a bit off topic...but has anyone considered the use of a traditional bow like recurve/long bows for mainly for hunting...quiet, efficent, you can make all the parts and repairs yourself with resources found around you, and keeps you from over extending your ammo supply.

[MarcSpaz]

I was doing some longbow and compound bow training about 5 or 6 years ago. I'll tell you this, at 100 yards, they can be damn good, very silent offensive and defensive weapons as well as a great resource for hunting.

Only down-sides I found were range and consistency. Consistency is very tricky... especially once you start getting tired. You need the same upper body, arm and head position every time. Plus you need to be as consistent as possible with your pull, which can be a challenge as you switch arrow types/weights and your equipment starts to wear.

High dollar longbows will pay off with decades of consistent spring rates. From there, setting the nocking point and make sure the silencers are properly spaced as you replace strings is the only real maintenance.

[0ne5hot]

I was doing some longbow and compound bow training about 5 or 6 years ago. I'll tell you this, at 100 yards, they can be damn good, very silent offensive and defensive weapons as well as a great resource for hunting.

Only down-sides I found were range and consistency. Consistency is very tricky... especially once you start getting tired. You need the same upper body, arm and head position every time. Plus you need to be as consistent as possible with your pull, which can be a challenge as you switch arrow types/weights and your equipment starts to wear.

High dollar longbows will pay off with decades of consistent spring rates. From there, setting the nocking point and make sure the silencers are properly spaced as you replace strings is the only real maintenance.

yeah they do require more effort to keep yourself consistent but I bow hunt every year. So to me it is just another tool in the tool box.

[Mindflayer]

My wife and I have been seriously considering trying our hand with bows. We know some very, very talented archers - like NCAA champion level - so it appeals.

I think I need to get http://www.wwzrt.com/ going again. All that info about bows would be good to put up there, Marc.

[MarcSpaz]