Toby Keith’s In Woodbridge – Facebook Gun Debate

[MarcSpaz]

So, I have been on Toby Keith’s Facebook page for a few days debating pro-gun / anti-gun points. It didn’t start off that way though. It started off with me just making a statement about an opinion I had. However it escalated very quickly, mostly because either Facebook or Toby Keith’s remove all of my early comments as well as some early comments of several others. That lead some of us to getting very vocal about it. I know some of you are aware of it because there was a link to an online article about it posted here. Ever since the media started covering it, they stopped deleting everything, but now the page is a big mess.

I have a question about all this for the group if you can bare with me for a minute.

Toby Keith’s has a policy that there are no firearms allowed in the restaurant. I posted a comment stating that a majority of Americans own firearms and they may be alienating a big piece of their customer base. I also said that I personally would not financially support a business that does not support my civil liberties. One thing leads to another and there is now a big gun debate going on there.

Yesterday I posted a comment apologizing to Toby Keith’s for my part of the debate, recognizing that their business' Facebook page was not the correct forum for a firearms debate and didn’t intend to have that occur. Now I am getting all kinds of nasty private emails and messages from gun owners telling me (in much more and polite words) that I’m a copout. Some folks are asking if Toby Keith’s is suing me assuming I started all this stuff on their Facebook page. I am simply not responding anymore.

So, here’s my question. Was that apology really a copout or am I doing the right thing assuming it’s the wrong forum for a gun debate and apologizing for my part in that?

I feel like it started to be a Starbucks 2.0 type situation. Starbucks didn't want to be a focal point in a gun debate and I am pretty sure Toby Keith's doesn't want to be either.

For what it's worth, I am not taking any credit/responsibility for the gun debate, as other people complained about their "no gun" policy before I did and it likely would have escalated that far without me ever posting. However, I can't help but feel I was contributory since most of the really heavy stuff started after a few long-winded posts I made.

[MNMGoneShooting]

It sounds to me you were being respectful of your thoughts and then it all blew up. After which, you were respectful to him by saying it was not your intention to start a debate forum there on his page. I don't see anything negative in those actions, you didn't back down from your viewpoint... Only seeked an end to the discussion there.

[gaudard]

Telling a business that you are not going to support them because they have a strict anti-gun policy (a sign that says no guns) sounds perfectly reasonable. Hear about Cracker Barrel pulling their Duck Dynasty stuff then putting it back on the shelves? I would think that is the goal of such a comment about guns.

Having the discussion spin out of control into a gun debate sounds typical, however I would say that is a fair to apologize and not a cop-out since it isn't the right place for that type of debate. Maybe recommend a neutral facebook page (or create one) for the debate

[SHMIV]

I don't reckon that it matters one way or the other. I wouldn't say that you copped out.

I'm guessing that other pro-gun folk were posting things that reflected poorly on the gun owning community?

Regardless, if you felt that things got out of hand, and you felt some responsibility for it, I can't fault you for offering an apology.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[MarcSpaz]

Cool. Thanks for the support guys. Sometime I question myself when maybe I shouldn't. Doesn't hurt to get an outside opinion. I don't want to be that person who says "I'm right, the rest of the world is wrong."

I don't reckon that it matters one way or the other. I wouldn't say that you copped out.

I'm guessing that other pro-gun folk were posting things that reflected poorly on the gun owning community?

Regardless, if you felt that things got out of hand, and you felt some responsibility for it, I can't fault you for offering an apology.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

There was some emotional stuff getting tossed around by the anti's. They were attacking the character of all gun owners and being very offensive. Some gun owners returned the favor instead of being polite and countering with actual facts. Name calling and derogatory comments don't help anyone's case.

I would say I was one of the most vocal. Not disrespectful though. Just trying to debunk lies and accusations coming from the left. Of course that just made the anti's even more upset. LOL

[SHMIV]

It has gotten to be a right touchy subject, hasn't it?

One of the things that always aggravates me is folks who are basically arguing from a view point similar to my own, but doing so in a manner that is ungracious, undiplomatic, and gives no regard to how a neutral onlooker may be swayed by such a poor presentation.

Defeats everything, if I come off looking like the angry and unstable man that the antis portray us to be.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Remek]

The gun people on FB are very vocal. I wouldn't worry about it. If you meant it, then that's all that matters.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[MarcSpaz]

Yes, I did mean it. I made an effort to be sincere, though who knows how it was read.

I do have to be honest, I let my temper get me one time. I thought it was a little funny. Good example of why I gave up and apologized too.

Frank Kramer posted...
Great news re your banning of guns in your restaurant !! Virginia leads the way, Terry McAuliff is a great advocate for gun control, hope other states follow suit !!!! Marc the tide for the pro gunners has turned, gun control is the issue for the moment, Americans are sick of the carnage, Virginia the home of the despised NRA, want the slaughter stopped, THE PEOPLE OF NEWTOWN DESERVE A VOTE, the people of the world find it impossible to comprehend the carnage and massacres in America, Americans deserve better !!

My reply...
Terry McAuliff is a back-bench hack who won the race because a billionaire with no vested interest in the people of this Commonwealth bought the election for him threw better advertising, not because he was a better candidate. Fortunately, we only have to deal with him for one term, then he's gone. The true people's representatives will not let him turn this Commonwealth into another New York. If you don't like it here, move back to whatever state/country you migrated from and leave us alone instead of screwing up our home.

Not really sure why this guys thinks Terry McAwefull had anything to do with this private business policy or why the people of Newtown CT deserve a vote on what happens in VA... but hey, what ever.

[trailrunner]

One of the sad things today is that we can't seem to debate issues in a reasonable manner. I don't mind hearing someone else's opinion, even when I know they disagree with me, if it's done in an intelligent, calm way. Unfortunately, that rarely happens on the intertubes. People ramp up the emotion, ramp down the intelligence, and start attacking. Changing someone's mind, or at least providing them with an alternative viewpoint that sticks with them so that they can spend some time thinking about, rarely happens.

I used to hang out in the Runner's World forums. There were some anti-gunners there that thought they had free reign of the mostly liberal readership. When they tried to post their lightweight stuff, I'd try to point out the fallacies of it, but it never got me anywhere. I dunno - maybe I changed the mind of some reader who just read the discussion but didn't participate. Anyway, after a while I got bored with it and moved on.

The best thing you did is to remain calm. We don't have to sink their level with childish name calling. Keep it calm, stick to the facts, and don't call people names. Kill 'em with kindness.

As far as TK's Facebook page being a place for a gun debate - sure! No publicity is bad, so maybe he doesn't mind it. He and his restaurants are making national headlines, so it's all fair game.

[Swampman]

You did what you did for your own reasons. Personally, I wouldn't have apologized. Based on what you have said here I don't see any reason to apologize. I don't do FB so I am not privy to all the goings on over there. I think FB is a waste of time, IMO.

The anti's can't rely on facts because they don't THINK. They rely on the MSM for their talking points (lies and distortions) and beat you down by yelling and calling you names. McAwful is a back-bench hack who was shepherded into the VA governors mansion by a billionaire back-bench hack who has no business sticking his pointy little beak into VA politics.

The only reason the anti's are even here is to suck off the federal teat (average gov't worker salary around $100K) that Obama waves around. These brainless idiots would have stayed in MA, NY, or wherever else they came from were it not for the gravy train that circles DC.

Backing out of that discussion was the right thing to do. The restaurant has made their choice and has to live with it. You are among friends here, not so much on FB.

[Reverenddel]

In truth? It's hard to debate any subject, and keep emotions out of it. The more logical and calmly you behave, the more someone gets even angrier.

As to T-Mac? You spoke the truth, nothing to be ashamed of...

Hell, I'm ashamed of living in Virginia now... I hate Carpetbaggers, Transplants, and Progressive/Communists...I have no use for them, wish them well in their endeavors... somewhere the frak else.

I met a great "Come'here" working the show today, he said leaving NY/NJ was like being in another country with freedoms he couldn't imagine...

[DCJon]

Another aspect of the Toby Keith discussion is the apparent insult to his primary audience. Toby Keith's background, music and persona is a down-to-earth patriot and 100% country boy. I think I'm safe to say a large portion of his primary audience and fan base are gun owners.

Those are the people slighted by his restaurant's action. Right or wrong, he name is on the sign.

[Reverenddel]

I'm sure the Dixie Chick's are ROLLING in laughter over this!

And they DESERVE to be!

You know there is a line from "The Dark Knight" that kinda makes sense: You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.- Harvey Dent.

After dealing with some muckety-mucks in business, law enforcement, politics, and lobby groups... Too many believe their own hype, and press... they start to lose focus, and think of themselves as "saviors".

They end up being as bad as the people they set out to fight.

I've always said "I'd rather be a Sergeant, than a Lieutenant." Keeps you humble.

[Swampman]

Besides, Lieutenants don't know jack. They're dumb as the ass they rode in on.

[dusterdude]

Ya got that right


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[DCJon]

Besides, Lieutenants don't know jack. They're dumb as the ass they rode in on.

When I was commissioned, my (retired Army NCO) dad told me "Listen to your NCO's. They know what's going on".

[dusterdude]

Your dad was a smart man


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[Swampman]

Smartest junior officers I ever dealt with were the ones who listened to their LPO's and Chiefs and thought about decisions before they flagged their gums. Didn't know too many.