What's the holdover?

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widefat
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What's the holdover?

Post by widefat »

Ok, a technical question regarding mil scopes - refer to the pics (mils per yard, ballistics, and reticle pic)

Assume zero wind and perfect conditions.
The target is at 400 yards.
Scope zero is 100 yards.
Mil Dot reticle.

Scope is SFP, at full power.
Question:
Which vertical dot on the reticle would you center on the target?

Now, change the scope -
Scope is FFP, at some random power. Same Mil Dot reticle.

Same Question:
Which vertical dot on the reticle would you center on the target?
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BertMacklin
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Re: What's the holdover?

Post by BertMacklin »

1st Question
SFP means the Mil dots only work (for finding range) at full magnification.
FFP means the Mil dots work at all magnifications (so the number of mils is the same at all conditions)

Drop at 400 yards is 42.87 inches, but Center of scope is already compensating for the 1st 100 yards of drop (nixing 1.84 inches)
=41.03 inches of drop to fix.
The mil dots at 400 yards represent 14.4 inches (height)
41.03 inches/14.4 inches per MilDot = 2.85 mildots

a bit above the third lower dot

Realize this is my amateur guess I've never looked through or used a mil-dot sight. However most of the equations I looked at for a mil dot assumes partial/perfect information of the target (typically size or height) which I don't see here.

http://www.mil-dot.com/articles/how-to- ... ot-reticle
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jdonovan
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Re: What's the holdover?

Post by jdonovan »

BertMacklin wrote:1st Question
SFP means the Mil dots only work (for finding range) at full magnification.
Nope. The mil dots work a 1 magnifaction only. RTFM for the scope to figure out which. 10x is a very common choice for what mag the dots are setup for.

Oh and to add fun, if you are not exactly 100% on the right power you'll introduce error. a few% at 300-400 yds, no big deal. 5% off at 800+ and that alone can be enough for a miss.
Drop at 400 yards is 42.87 inches, but Center of scope is already compensating for the 1st 100 yards of drop (nixing 1.84 inches)
=41.03 inches of drop to fix.
You forgot to add the height of the scope above the bore into the drop. The viewing plane (through the scope) is already 1-3" above the muzzle. So is 0 yards does not equal 0 drop.

When you are working with a dope card, generally you zero at 100 yards, and then your calculate dope card should work correctly.

SFP and ranging non-perfect size objects is generally has enough error stacking between all the assumptions, that its really hard to get a good range. With cheap Laser range finders these days I see a lot more lase the target vs estimate the target.
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BertMacklin
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Re: What's the holdover?

Post by BertMacklin »

Makes sense, I hadn't thought of that and guess I heard wrong about SFP. Would there be a difference between the # of dots between SFP and FFP though, if given the same conditions and rifle?
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jdonovan
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Re: What's the holdover?

Post by jdonovan »

BertMacklin wrote: Would there be a difference between the # of dots between SFP and FFP though, if given the same conditions and rifle?
Yes it would. The mils/moa between the dot spacing on a SFP changes based on zoom. Ona FFP the reticle changes apparent size with zoom, so its alway constant spacing between marks which makes it ideal for ranging and adjusting for holdover.
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widefat
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Re: What's the holdover?

Post by widefat »

Good Stuff.

so, looking at the ballistics chart - do you add the scope height to the bullet path, or the bullet drop?
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jdonovan
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Re: What's the holdover?

Post by jdonovan »

widefat wrote:so, looking at the ballistics chart - do you add the scope height to the bullet path, or the bullet drop?
Ideally neither.

You run your dope chart based on a zero range > 0 yards. Therefore the scope height is already compensated for in the zero.

nearly all the long range shooters I know use a 100yd zero, and calculate their come-up from that. We use 100yds because its the easiest to find range close to home :clap:

Try using this ballistics calculator http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resou ... calculator.

click on the image and scroll down to see the whole chart.
223 rem.png
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Ok, now we have a table with a 100 yd zero, for your .223 cartridge. ( i assumed a 55gr FMJ@3240fps)

Target is 400 yds, from the chart our come up is 1.9mils... we will assume your SFP scope has its reticle set so the MIL-dots are correct at max magnification.
Therefore hold over to the 2nd mil-dot, and send it. The got-ya on the SFP, is if you are NOT at the right power setting you've got to do some math to figure out what the spacing of the dots is at that power setting. Also the zoom on scopes is notoriously not-exactly what the power ring says it is.... so it really becomes a guess.

With a FFP scope, magnification is irrelevant, because the reticle is accurate at all powers, so I ignore my zoom setting, hold over 2 mills, and send it.

The other option on both scopes, is to dial 2 mils into your elevation turret, and then hold the center of the reticle on the target, and then shoot. And that would be my preference for a SFP... that way I'm not guessing about zoom/error.
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widefat
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Re: What's the holdover?

Post by widefat »

Why thank you very much....
I plugged different sight heights into the calculator; very illuminating.
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jdonovan
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Re: What's the holdover?

Post by jdonovan »

glad I could help
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