What makes people this stupid?

[Swampman]

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/a ... html?hp=r9

What is it that causes a complete lack of common sense and ignorance of the fact that climate change is inevitable? It must go back to that old adage about speaking lies long enough until they become truth.

[ShotgunBlast]

I think the fact that we do look for oil in more and more remote locations should prepare us for a future with less oil, but as long as private industry wants to spend the money because they think they can turn a profit we should let them. It's mind-boggling that we can't just build a refinery up there and get this show on the road instead of dealing with all of this political wrangling before we even start building the pipeline.

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[Palladin]

Until Al stops using energy, walks or bikes to where he needs to go (Hell) and lives in a tent, he just needs to sit down and shut up.

[Remek]

Okay, as a hunter and fisherman, I am pretty sure I see our environment changing. It appears to me that I can see the effects of global warming. On top of that I have read several scientific papers (no not the sensationalized stuff, the real hard-core studies), and they make a good argument for global warming. Can we prove we are the cause? No, because it was happening and speeding up before we started burning fossil fuels. However, would it help for to stop? Probably, but I am unsure if the USA stopping would change anything. We are a big burner of fossil fuels, but I think when you consider china and other developing countries, then count in the other developed countries, we are really a small contributor. No reason for us to stop, except to plan to get off it before it disappears.

Even given this though, I am against opening the oil fields in the north of AK or anywhere, until we change the law so that we get all the oil that we pump, and it does NOT enter the global market before we get it. Entering the global market is the main reason the prices go up. It puts a lot of money in oil companies, but its our oil, and we are be used by the companies to make them rich and make it harder for us to afford gas. There is no reason we cannot curb that profit made by simply taking our oil out of the global market.

[Kreutz]

The sun is entering an overdue low activity phase. If anything increased greenhouse gases would save us from a small Ice Age. A bit like putting a coat on the planet to keep it warm.

My only gripe with the Keystone is that its more profitable for the Canadians than for us.

[dorminWS]

Even given this though, I am against opening the oil fields in the north of AK or anywhere, until we change the law so that we get all the oil that we pump, and it does NOT enter the global market before we get it. Entering the global market is the main reason the prices go up. It puts a lot of money in oil companies, but its our oil, and we are be used by the companies to make them rich and make it harder for us to afford gas. There is no reason we cannot curb that profit made by simply taking our oil out of the global market.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It is tempting to say that, but I'm afraid it's just too simplistic an approach. $3-$4 per gallon gas makes me just as mad as it does anybody, but oil companies are not the sole (perhaps not even the primary) architects of gasoline prices. First, the pricing determinants for oil are global and not within the control of any one entity; and many of the controlling entities are not friends of the US. Second, the taxes we pay on gasoline are very heavy. Third, government regulations add very significantly to gas prices, and also effect supply. Most of the big oil companies have lower earnings as a percentage of sales than Walmart. They spend vast sums on exploration and drilling; sometimes with little or no return. If they don't earn enough to pay interest on their debt and dividends to their stockholders, they won't be in a position to continue to supply enough oil. Just look, for instance, at what government meddling in health care is doing to the price and availability of health care services. If they earn more money on sales to other countries, that is money they don't need to earn at home. If they get oil from Alaska and the economics are more favorable to send it to Japan and service the US market with oil from Canada, then it lowers oil prices in the US to do so. And, if the US restricts exports to other countries, (1) they may retaliate by doing likewise, and (2) any shortage of supply that might cause will drive up the global price for oil with the result that US users will have to bid against foreign buyers who will bid the price up. It is a global market. And markets tend to punish those who f#%k with them.

[Remek]

I am willing to listen, but every time I try to get hard numbers, I get stone walled with assertions rather than concrete data that I can believe. For Example, on Exxon's website, they discuss how most of their money comes from abroad, and they assert they make only pennies on the gallon when they sell it here. They also assert 10% profit each year (which I can believe, and I do believe that is historically a huge profit, and when I check walmart, counter to what you stated, they are in the 3-4% mark, which is very good, historically speaking, considering total expenses and total profit (http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=wmt+Inc ... ent&annual).

The problem I have is I have no hard numbers for the oil companies. Things are very hidden.

For taxes, we have paid 17.5 cents/gallon, but it is now down to 11.5 cents/gallon, for state taxes. (http://www.timesdispatch.com/business/a ... 967af.html)
We pay 38.6 cents/gallon in federal tax in VA (http://www.gaspricewatch.com/web_gas_taxes.php)

So far, the taxes in VA are a total of 29 cents per gallon. So, that is less than 10% (admittedly this is only on gasoline)

That's as far as I have ever been to crunch the numbers.

I can leave room for the idea that oil companies bring revenue into the states from abroad. That is a good thing. How much, and how much of that is from foreign oil sources? How much would be lost if we took our own oil? How much would we gain from selling ourselves the same oil?

I wish I understood this stuff better, and was more facile at analysis of it, but here I am using hard logic, and I only see aversion when it comes to big oil and the profit it makes from US oil, versus how much profit they make selling to the likes of us.

When left with nothing but confusion or being warned of doom and gloom, I never fall for that, its my policy. Thats how salesmen cheats and liars survive.

Can you help me crunch the numbers for big oil with recourse to the hard data?

[ratherfish]

The sun is entering an overdue low activity phase. If anything increased greenhouse gases would save us from a small Ice Age. A bit like putting a coat on the planet to keep it warm.

My only gripe with the Keystone is that its more profitable for the Canadians than for us.

I remember the last "Ice Age" scare. Progressives use impending doom to scare the feeble minded into doing their will.

There is no reson on earth to not become an energy exporter right now. We could easily sell coal and natural gas.

[Swampman]

Fact is, the earth has been cooling since 1998. Is this evidence that climate change isn't happening? Quite the contrary. Climate change - the normal fluctuations in the temperature of the earth - has been happening for centuries. The general trend is upwards, and NASA states that since 1880 the temperature has increased approximately 1.4 degrees F. Why is such a seemingly small change creating such problems? Because it isn't just the change in ambient air temperature. That happens every day and affects very little if anything. The reason it is such a problem is that the change in temperature is directly related to the temperature of the land and water. These changes are more gradual and have a longer lasting affect than daily air temperature changes.

So, how then, do mans activities affect changes in land and sea temperature? There are more factors to go into than I care to discuss here, and I would likely miss many of them. The issue is not how do we stop climate change, but more a question of are we really affecting this natural process in a significant way. Sure, temps are up since 1880 (the start of the industrial revolution), but without another planet exactly like ours that did not experience the same industrial growth, we have no yardstick against which to measure our purported effects. This is my big problem with all the hysteria.

I don't have an issue with alternative energy sources, as long as they are economically feasible alternatives to fossil fuels. The way I see it, lets develop our fossil fuels to full capacity and extract all we possibly can. As the stuff runs out you will see the development of better forms of alternative energy because people will see a niche to be filled, and an opportunity to create wealth. Look at electric cars and batteries. They have progressed quite rapidly in the past several decades. Why? Because someone decided they could make money building them. If it wasn't such a good idea, why do all the manufacturers now produce hybrids? And why are more models of every brand sporting that little green leaf?

This isn't that difficult to understand, until you try to explain it to the numbskulls in DC.

[wally626]

wattsupwiththat.com is an excellent site for climate discussions from the skeptical side.
I looked into the VA temperature numbers and the state itself has not warmed since 1930s which is when most of thetemperatuure recording stations were set-up. Some data from before that but very limited. The US as a whole has not warmed either, the change in the reported US numbers since around1850 is the same as the corrections being applied by NOAA, the raw data shows no change. Many people have checked the reported data for other countries and found that the official numbers far exceed the reported values. Not every country has been double checked but enough to make me very skeptical of the temperature numbers.
There are also starting to appear very solid papers noting that the amount of positive feedback in the water cycle is being vastly overestimated in the computer models.
Climates change, always have, the key is having enough wealth to respond, not bankrupt yourself fighting nature.

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[Palladin]

We've got to stop plate tectonics - all these earthquakes are just insane. I propose a tax on folks living in earthquake prone zones. Send the collections to me since I thought of this. I will consider a solution to stop plate tectonics.

<snerk>

[Swampman]

We've got to stop plate tectonics - all these earthquakes are just insane. I propose a tax on folks living in earthquake prone zones. Send the collections to me since I thought of this. I will consider a solution to stop plate tectonics.

<snerk>

Hey! I thought of that 10 years ago! I want a slice of that!