FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
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wayupthecreek
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FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
Hello. First post on what looks to be a very good site. I am a NJ resident who recently acquired camping/hunting land in Craig County (small trailer on-site). The only firearm that I currently own is a 12 ga Mossberg single that was given to me many moons ago. I want to purchase a hunting rifle and a semi-auto or pump shotgun to keep and use on my VA property. I ultimately would also like to purchase a wheel gun for myself and one for the wife for there (we have rattlers who would like to dispute the land ownership). For reasons that I think should be obvious (I did mention that I live in NJ, did I not?) I would prefer to purchase these guns in VA. I read the VA regulations, and thought that I understood that the requirements are that I would need to show proof of property ownership ("presence") to purchase the rifle or scattergun, and a formal VA ID to purchase a handgun. I went to two different gun dealers with procedural questions last week, and received two different responses, neither of which seems to conform to the regs as I read them. Shop #1 told me that I would need the VA ID for a handgun, but just needed to show some form of formal ID (my NJ DL, for example) to purchase a hunting rifle or shotgun. Shop #2 told me that he had just been audited by ATF the week before and that they told him that when selling to an out-of-state resident, he needed to follow all of the requirements of the buyer's home state, no matter what the class of firearm. The shop #2 vendor seemed to be much more knowledgeable than the shop #1 guy, but I find his contention difficult to swallow at face value. In fact, after doing additional review of the NJ regs today, I'm not even certain it is literally possible. Can ATF really impose such rules on FFL that contradict/contravene state regs? Is the statement of the shop #2 guy accurate as stated, or is it possible that he just wanted to blow me off to avoid any possible hassle with a non-resident sale? Maybe if he had been audited that recently he suspected that I might be part of some sting? If this really is a requirement on FFL, is there an alternative path to gun (long gun, at least) purchase for me in VA? I really do not want to go through the NJ bureaucratic goat rodeo to do this here, and while I do plan to eventually retire to that piece of mountain land, changing my official residence at this time would be highly inconvenient. I appreciate any advice on this subject. Thanks in advance.
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ProShooter
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Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
What part of NJ are you from?
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wayupthecreek
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Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
Southern NJ 
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
Property ownership does not have any bearing on firearms acquisition in this case... Other things say a hunting license property ownership would have bearing on.
Long arms may be purchased in any state regardless of your state of residence, and transferred to your possession at time of purchase.
Handguns may be purchased in any state but must be transferred to your possession in your state of residence.
You can 'buy' here in VA, or anywhere else for that matter, but the dealer would then ship the handgun to a NJ FFL of your choice. The NJ FFL would then transfer the handgun to you in accordance with NJ law.
Long arms may be purchased in any state regardless of your state of residence, and transferred to your possession at time of purchase.
Handguns may be purchased in any state but must be transferred to your possession in your state of residence.
You can 'buy' here in VA, or anywhere else for that matter, but the dealer would then ship the handgun to a NJ FFL of your choice. The NJ FFL would then transfer the handgun to you in accordance with NJ law.
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allingeneral
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Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
I think the key here is "State of residence" - not just whether or not you maintain a property in Virginia. If you were to move to that property in Virginia and obtain a Virginia drivers' license, then you would be a Virginia resident for purposes of purchasing a handgun. Otherwise, you are still considered a resident of NJ and must follow NJ protocol for handgun purchases.
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
jdonovan wrote:
Long arms may be purchased in any state regardless of your state of residence, and transferred to your possession at time of purchase.
Better double check that one. I've been into a few dealer in NC and have seen maps they have of states which they can sell long guns to nonresidents. Since new Jersey requires a permit to fart he may be out of luck.
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
[/quote]Vahunter wrote:
Better double check that one. I've been into a few dealer in NC and have seen maps they have of states which they can sell long guns to nonresidents. Since new Jersey requires a permit to fart he may be out of luck.
I was referring to federal laws. Other states may have additional restrictions, but as the state of purchase in question was Virginia, there would be no state laws that I know of that would preclude his purchase of a long arm here.
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user
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
This is a matter of confusion regarding the scope of federal and state laws. They're different. But there's no impediment to buying a long gun in Va. Here's something that most folks don't consider: "residency" is defined differently for different functions. You can be a resident of only one state for voter registration or a driver's license, but you can be a resident of more than one state for BATFE gun transfer purposes. If you have a permanent presence in Virginia, and actually live in Virginia while you're buying the gun, then you're a Virginia resident for that purpose.
There are two kinds of documentation required. You have to be able to identify yourself, and you have to be able to confirm your residency. Normally, you can use a driver's license for both functions, but that isn't necessary. You can use a driver's license or passport to establish your identity, even if it has a NJ address on it. Take a copy of your Virginia county's property tax receipt (get one from the local office of assessments if you don' t have it already) and a few utility bills with you to the place where you want to buy the gun. Make sure these documents have the same name on them that appears on your proof of identity document.
The gun dealer will balk if he's got any sense. Ask him to call his local BATFE contact and explain the situation and get a ruling. Remember the key point you have to drive home is that you actually live in Virginia while you're buying the gun here.
There are two kinds of documentation required. You have to be able to identify yourself, and you have to be able to confirm your residency. Normally, you can use a driver's license for both functions, but that isn't necessary. You can use a driver's license or passport to establish your identity, even if it has a NJ address on it. Take a copy of your Virginia county's property tax receipt (get one from the local office of assessments if you don' t have it already) and a few utility bills with you to the place where you want to buy the gun. Make sure these documents have the same name on them that appears on your proof of identity document.
The gun dealer will balk if he's got any sense. Ask him to call his local BATFE contact and explain the situation and get a ruling. Remember the key point you have to drive home is that you actually live in Virginia while you're buying the gun here.
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
good response..jdonovan wrote:Property ownership does not have any bearing on firearms acquisition in this case... Other things say a hunting license property ownership would have bearing on.
Long arms may be purchased in any state regardless of your state of residence, and transferred to your possession at time of purchase.
Handguns may be purchased in any state but must be transferred to your possession in your state of residence.
You can 'buy' here in VA, or anywhere else for that matter, but the dealer would then ship the handgun to a NJ FFL of your choice. The NJ FFL would then transfer the handgun to you in accordance with NJ law.
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"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."...George Orwell
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
Greetings. This is my first post, so please be easy on me......
I think "user" is on to something here (conflicting state/federal INTERPRETATIONS of law). Also I think it was the OP who mentioned conflicting answers from two FFLs. The FFLs may have both been technically correct however.
I have some familiarity with both NJ and VA FA laws (and am currently a "resident" of both states). Please don't hold my residency in the People's Republic of NJ against me.
One of the problems I have run up against is the issue of "residency". VA actually allows for a dual residency situation (for gun purchase). You just have to be currently residing/living in VA at the time of purchase and it can't just be a parcel of land. It's easy to actually prove residency with property tax records and utility bills.
Another problem is the Driver License issue. I don't want to get to far off track, but now that we have all the Homeland Security Act deprivations in force, the DL has become a defacto National ID, complete with standardization of format, personal information, picture ID, and biometric information. All but a few states have complied with this Executive regulation tied to Highway funds even though Congress has refused every attempt to create a true National ID Card. Except for a few states (neither VA and NJ) you must surrender your DL and obtain a new one when you "move" to another state. I would imagine truckers are aware of this matter. But people who live in more than one state may have good reasons why they might prefer one DL over another but state laws (and voter registration) are making this issue more and more complicated.
Now to the state gun laws themselves. NJ allows residents to purchase long guns as long as they have a Firearms ID Card (wimpy handling certification) BUT residents may only purchase handguns with a Pistol Permit ("may issue"). The Pistol Permit process requires Reason For (list), Background Check, References, Fingerprinting, State Police OK, and took me about six months of waiting before being issued (30 years ago). After getting it, I looked around for a sale at a FFL and when I found the pistol I wanted drove 2 hours and went to purchase, handed the person my Permit and he said "I'm sorry, your Permit EXPIRED yesterday. He pointed to the fine print that said "valid for 30 days"!!!!!!!!!! So I had to find a pistol in NJ in "other ways." We all know how easily criminals can get them.
So, I can buy a shotgun or rifle (with fewer than 15 rounds and/or not on the NJ AR banned list) at Cabella's in PA with my NJ DL but NOT a pistol. I SHOULD be able to buy a pistol there and have it shipped to my FFL in VA, but they would not honor that since they would require my DL as the ONLY proof of residency.
Technically, under VA law, I SHOULD be able to purchase a pistol from a VA FFL, since I am a resident of VA but I doubt I will find an FFL in VA willing to do so. Why? Because of my DL.
Now, my suggestion to the OP would be to make a VA face to face private party transaction and purchase his pistols that way.
Be advised though, as much as most gun traders in VA are interested in the Second Amendment and all that, many will ask a buyer for his/her DL and CHP before they will sell you a pistol. I find this ironic as they are actually serving to perpetuate the difficulty in owning and bearing arms that so many levels of our governments are raining down upon us.
One final point. Even VA FFLs are becoming defacto "cops" for the states/LEAs who want guns banned altogether. I few years ago I took my wife (who has her VA DL) to a gun show for the purpose of buying her a pistol for home security. She is a good rifle and shotgun shooter, but had never done much pistol shooting. Since I am away from home (VA) a lot and we live in a rural area near a highway, it seemed like a good idea. But she needed help in picking one out. So she filled out the forms, waited for the background check, and we went to pay for the pistol. Someone behind the counter demanded to see MY DL. They wouldn't sell HER the pistol without seeing MY LICENSE. When they saw it was a NJ DL, they refused to sell my wife her pistol. In their eyes, my wife was purchasing ME a pistol as a "straw purchase" and Mayor Bloomberg from NYC would be after them!
So we went to the local gun shop and bought her a Glock. It was only about $100 more.
I hope I don't get banned from this board for such a long post, especially being a newbee, but this is kind of an important topic to me.
I have not cited any laws here as I had not planned to post, I was just trying to hit most topics to become familiar with the site, but I couldn't resist. I have pretty good confidence with my research to date but find gun laws (as most laws) open more questions than they answer, so feel free to challenge any of my points.
Be safe,
cdm (with VA CHP)
I think "user" is on to something here (conflicting state/federal INTERPRETATIONS of law). Also I think it was the OP who mentioned conflicting answers from two FFLs. The FFLs may have both been technically correct however.
I have some familiarity with both NJ and VA FA laws (and am currently a "resident" of both states). Please don't hold my residency in the People's Republic of NJ against me.
One of the problems I have run up against is the issue of "residency". VA actually allows for a dual residency situation (for gun purchase). You just have to be currently residing/living in VA at the time of purchase and it can't just be a parcel of land. It's easy to actually prove residency with property tax records and utility bills.
Another problem is the Driver License issue. I don't want to get to far off track, but now that we have all the Homeland Security Act deprivations in force, the DL has become a defacto National ID, complete with standardization of format, personal information, picture ID, and biometric information. All but a few states have complied with this Executive regulation tied to Highway funds even though Congress has refused every attempt to create a true National ID Card. Except for a few states (neither VA and NJ) you must surrender your DL and obtain a new one when you "move" to another state. I would imagine truckers are aware of this matter. But people who live in more than one state may have good reasons why they might prefer one DL over another but state laws (and voter registration) are making this issue more and more complicated.
Now to the state gun laws themselves. NJ allows residents to purchase long guns as long as they have a Firearms ID Card (wimpy handling certification) BUT residents may only purchase handguns with a Pistol Permit ("may issue"). The Pistol Permit process requires Reason For (list), Background Check, References, Fingerprinting, State Police OK, and took me about six months of waiting before being issued (30 years ago). After getting it, I looked around for a sale at a FFL and when I found the pistol I wanted drove 2 hours and went to purchase, handed the person my Permit and he said "I'm sorry, your Permit EXPIRED yesterday. He pointed to the fine print that said "valid for 30 days"!!!!!!!!!! So I had to find a pistol in NJ in "other ways." We all know how easily criminals can get them.
So, I can buy a shotgun or rifle (with fewer than 15 rounds and/or not on the NJ AR banned list) at Cabella's in PA with my NJ DL but NOT a pistol. I SHOULD be able to buy a pistol there and have it shipped to my FFL in VA, but they would not honor that since they would require my DL as the ONLY proof of residency.
Technically, under VA law, I SHOULD be able to purchase a pistol from a VA FFL, since I am a resident of VA but I doubt I will find an FFL in VA willing to do so. Why? Because of my DL.
Now, my suggestion to the OP would be to make a VA face to face private party transaction and purchase his pistols that way.
Be advised though, as much as most gun traders in VA are interested in the Second Amendment and all that, many will ask a buyer for his/her DL and CHP before they will sell you a pistol. I find this ironic as they are actually serving to perpetuate the difficulty in owning and bearing arms that so many levels of our governments are raining down upon us.
One final point. Even VA FFLs are becoming defacto "cops" for the states/LEAs who want guns banned altogether. I few years ago I took my wife (who has her VA DL) to a gun show for the purpose of buying her a pistol for home security. She is a good rifle and shotgun shooter, but had never done much pistol shooting. Since I am away from home (VA) a lot and we live in a rural area near a highway, it seemed like a good idea. But she needed help in picking one out. So she filled out the forms, waited for the background check, and we went to pay for the pistol. Someone behind the counter demanded to see MY DL. They wouldn't sell HER the pistol without seeing MY LICENSE. When they saw it was a NJ DL, they refused to sell my wife her pistol. In their eyes, my wife was purchasing ME a pistol as a "straw purchase" and Mayor Bloomberg from NYC would be after them!
So we went to the local gun shop and bought her a Glock. It was only about $100 more.
I hope I don't get banned from this board for such a long post, especially being a newbee, but this is kind of an important topic to me.
I have not cited any laws here as I had not planned to post, I was just trying to hit most topics to become familiar with the site, but I couldn't resist. I have pretty good confidence with my research to date but find gun laws (as most laws) open more questions than they answer, so feel free to challenge any of my points.
Be safe,
cdm (with VA CHP)
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
Bumping up this old thread from 2010. This is my first post, so sorry if this has been discussed before.
I own a house in NJ and a house in VA. I spend just over half the year in NJ, so this is my state of residency for voting, income taxes, and driver's license. I never felt a need for a gun in NJ (believe it or not!) but since my VA home is so remote (10 miles from town, 25 acres, 1/2 mile driveway) I decided I could not count on local police if we had a break-in (when seconds count, the police are just minutes away!). So I decided I'd like to have a shotgun for the bedroom, and a handgun for downstairs. I started with a Remingtom 870 HD 12 ga and would now like to get a pistol.
When I was shopping for the shotgun last year I went to three different Walmarts on five occasions, told them I lived in NJ but had a house in VA, and asked them what they required. All said no problem, just present a government issued photo ID like my NJ driver's license, a second matching form of ID, and submit to a background check. Some referred to a map and NJ was a "green" state meaning they could sell me. Unfortunately none had the shotgun I wanted in stock, so I went to a gun shop to order one. They refused to sell me since I was an NJ "resident" unless I had an NJ FID. So I went to another gun shop a few months ago who said no problem and sold me the gun.
Last month I was in a Walmart in VA and just for the heck of it asked again what they required to sell a long gun to an NJ resident, and this time their computer said NO! Period!
Has something changed in the past few months or has Walmart just changed policy? I have studied the ATF and VA regulations and it is clear to me that since I own a house in VA I am a resident of VA while there, so there should be no problem buying a long gun.
As for the handgun, I should be able to buy one in VA as well since I am a VA resident, but the FFLs all want to see a VA driver's license. Is it legal to buy a handgun from a private VA citizen?
Thanks!
Tom
I own a house in NJ and a house in VA. I spend just over half the year in NJ, so this is my state of residency for voting, income taxes, and driver's license. I never felt a need for a gun in NJ (believe it or not!) but since my VA home is so remote (10 miles from town, 25 acres, 1/2 mile driveway) I decided I could not count on local police if we had a break-in (when seconds count, the police are just minutes away!). So I decided I'd like to have a shotgun for the bedroom, and a handgun for downstairs. I started with a Remingtom 870 HD 12 ga and would now like to get a pistol.
When I was shopping for the shotgun last year I went to three different Walmarts on five occasions, told them I lived in NJ but had a house in VA, and asked them what they required. All said no problem, just present a government issued photo ID like my NJ driver's license, a second matching form of ID, and submit to a background check. Some referred to a map and NJ was a "green" state meaning they could sell me. Unfortunately none had the shotgun I wanted in stock, so I went to a gun shop to order one. They refused to sell me since I was an NJ "resident" unless I had an NJ FID. So I went to another gun shop a few months ago who said no problem and sold me the gun.
Last month I was in a Walmart in VA and just for the heck of it asked again what they required to sell a long gun to an NJ resident, and this time their computer said NO! Period!
Has something changed in the past few months or has Walmart just changed policy? I have studied the ATF and VA regulations and it is clear to me that since I own a house in VA I am a resident of VA while there, so there should be no problem buying a long gun.
As for the handgun, I should be able to buy one in VA as well since I am a VA resident, but the FFLs all want to see a VA driver's license. Is it legal to buy a handgun from a private VA citizen?
Thanks!
Tom
In NJ, the bad guys are armed and the households are alarmed. In VA, the households are armed and the bad guys are alarmed.
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OakRidgeStars
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Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
No, you must be able to prove VA residency to purchase a handgun via a private sale.TomVA wrote:As for the handgun, I should be able to buy one in VA as well since I am a VA resident, but the FFLs all want to see a VA driver's license. Is it legal to buy a handgun from a private VA citizen?
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
TomVA,
My first suggestion would be to get out of NJ. I finally did.
NJ recently passed a lot of new ridiculous anti 2A laws on top of the old ridiculous ones they already had on their books.
First, you could buy a shotgun from an FFL in VA with your NJ DL because, as a NJ resident, it's still legal to buy/own a shotgun in NJ.
However, with your NJ DL, even though you own property in VA, going through an FFL means you are dealing with a federal process of interstate commerce. As such, an FFL must follow not just VA law, but also federal law governing firearm transfers. Now that the US government has basically turned state driver's licenses into a National ID Form (in spite of Congress' refusal to create one) citizens have been reduced to being only allowed to have one DL, even when they own property in more than one state. In the case of an FFL, they must go by your DL in determining your "home state/residency". There are still states that don't recognize this defacto national ID, but the federal government threatens them with not being able to qualify for highway funds.
So, an FFL looks at your NJ DL and then has to look up NJ laws governing what a NJ resident is/isn't allowed to purchase/own. NJ laws governing the purchase of handguns is much more stringent than it is for buying shotguns and requires all sorts of hoops and over six months in order to obtain a "NJ Permit to Purchase a Handgun" (which, by the way, is only good for 30 days from its issue date in spite of the fact that it takes over six months to obtain). This is why you are unable to purchase a handgun with your NJ DL. Even in NJ you would have the same problem.
Another issue your situation seems to have run across with respect to your shotgun buying is that the NJ laws probably changed between the time you first went to purchase your shotgun and more recently. I believe the recent laws in NJ required a new firearms ID for purchase of shotguns where it might have been less stringent a year or so ago.
Now, as far as your being able to purchase a handgun legally in VA, it's not an easy issue to figure out. As stated above, no FFL will legally be able to sell you one, due to their having to deal with federal law/regulations. However, since you own property in VA and reside here, the last time I checked the statutes you were legally allowed to purchase/own firearms including handguns. The question becomes how to legally obtain one. My understanding is still that VA face to face transfers within the boundaries of VA between two VA property owners would be legal. BUT, here's where things get dicey.
Since there is absolute paranoia in this state due to Governor Bloomberg attempting to ban guns in general and prove that VA laws are not strict enough, even parties to private transfers are essentially requiring the same documentation that FFL must require. This is kind of ironic.
What you need to do is obtain documentation showing you own property in VA and look up the current VA law governing private transfer and ownership. Property tax and utility bills should suffice.
Then you need to find a private VA owner who is willing to sell you a handgun. If both parties to this transfer can prove to each other they are VA property owners, I believe you could have a valid and legal VA private transfer without having a VA DL.
Be advised that even this site is likely to disagree with me, as most VA residents are now encouraged to not only demand a VA DL, but also a VA CHP in order to make private intrastate transfers.
As you are still a NJ property owner I would also encourage you to join the NJ Second Amendment Society which is attempting to correct the stupid NJ firearms laws (both current and constantly proposed new ones).
And, again, escape NJ as soon as possible.
IMO, what we need in the country is a National Concealed Handgun Driver's License Endorsement LAW. Such a law would end all the nonsense of every state violating our 2A rights. As with your DL, you'd take a written and practical test to show you know the law and how to operate your firearms and a background check would be conducted and it would now be legal for you to own and "operate" your firearms in all of the land. As with most states that currently allow concealed carry, crime would most likely decline when criminals knew that they were no longer the only ones (other than police) in a crowd carrying. It would also be less likely that mass shootings would occur as often or with as many fatalities when armed citizens were likely to be in what are now "gun free zones."
If all the gun rights organizations were to concentrate on a national CHDL endorsement law and an educational campaign explaining it, such a law would end all the stupidity of having a 2A in name only while having every state with changing laws at the whim of stupid politicians and those afraid of guns. But right now there are too many organizations operating in a decentralized and parochial manner at both the individual state and federal level, each with its own agenda. It's a classic "us vs. them" mentality and it leads to the frustration you have had trying to protect yourself in your various residences.
Charlie
My first suggestion would be to get out of NJ. I finally did.
NJ recently passed a lot of new ridiculous anti 2A laws on top of the old ridiculous ones they already had on their books.
First, you could buy a shotgun from an FFL in VA with your NJ DL because, as a NJ resident, it's still legal to buy/own a shotgun in NJ.
However, with your NJ DL, even though you own property in VA, going through an FFL means you are dealing with a federal process of interstate commerce. As such, an FFL must follow not just VA law, but also federal law governing firearm transfers. Now that the US government has basically turned state driver's licenses into a National ID Form (in spite of Congress' refusal to create one) citizens have been reduced to being only allowed to have one DL, even when they own property in more than one state. In the case of an FFL, they must go by your DL in determining your "home state/residency". There are still states that don't recognize this defacto national ID, but the federal government threatens them with not being able to qualify for highway funds.
So, an FFL looks at your NJ DL and then has to look up NJ laws governing what a NJ resident is/isn't allowed to purchase/own. NJ laws governing the purchase of handguns is much more stringent than it is for buying shotguns and requires all sorts of hoops and over six months in order to obtain a "NJ Permit to Purchase a Handgun" (which, by the way, is only good for 30 days from its issue date in spite of the fact that it takes over six months to obtain). This is why you are unable to purchase a handgun with your NJ DL. Even in NJ you would have the same problem.
Another issue your situation seems to have run across with respect to your shotgun buying is that the NJ laws probably changed between the time you first went to purchase your shotgun and more recently. I believe the recent laws in NJ required a new firearms ID for purchase of shotguns where it might have been less stringent a year or so ago.
Now, as far as your being able to purchase a handgun legally in VA, it's not an easy issue to figure out. As stated above, no FFL will legally be able to sell you one, due to their having to deal with federal law/regulations. However, since you own property in VA and reside here, the last time I checked the statutes you were legally allowed to purchase/own firearms including handguns. The question becomes how to legally obtain one. My understanding is still that VA face to face transfers within the boundaries of VA between two VA property owners would be legal. BUT, here's where things get dicey.
Since there is absolute paranoia in this state due to Governor Bloomberg attempting to ban guns in general and prove that VA laws are not strict enough, even parties to private transfers are essentially requiring the same documentation that FFL must require. This is kind of ironic.
What you need to do is obtain documentation showing you own property in VA and look up the current VA law governing private transfer and ownership. Property tax and utility bills should suffice.
Then you need to find a private VA owner who is willing to sell you a handgun. If both parties to this transfer can prove to each other they are VA property owners, I believe you could have a valid and legal VA private transfer without having a VA DL.
Be advised that even this site is likely to disagree with me, as most VA residents are now encouraged to not only demand a VA DL, but also a VA CHP in order to make private intrastate transfers.
As you are still a NJ property owner I would also encourage you to join the NJ Second Amendment Society which is attempting to correct the stupid NJ firearms laws (both current and constantly proposed new ones).
And, again, escape NJ as soon as possible.
IMO, what we need in the country is a National Concealed Handgun Driver's License Endorsement LAW. Such a law would end all the nonsense of every state violating our 2A rights. As with your DL, you'd take a written and practical test to show you know the law and how to operate your firearms and a background check would be conducted and it would now be legal for you to own and "operate" your firearms in all of the land. As with most states that currently allow concealed carry, crime would most likely decline when criminals knew that they were no longer the only ones (other than police) in a crowd carrying. It would also be less likely that mass shootings would occur as often or with as many fatalities when armed citizens were likely to be in what are now "gun free zones."
If all the gun rights organizations were to concentrate on a national CHDL endorsement law and an educational campaign explaining it, such a law would end all the stupidity of having a 2A in name only while having every state with changing laws at the whim of stupid politicians and those afraid of guns. But right now there are too many organizations operating in a decentralized and parochial manner at both the individual state and federal level, each with its own agenda. It's a classic "us vs. them" mentality and it leads to the frustration you have had trying to protect yourself in your various residences.
Charlie
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
Thanks Charlie for the detailed explanation. I have done a lot of reading online on this subject and the one thing that is clear is that nothing is clear! By ATF definitions I am a VA resident while in VA and therefore should be entitled to all of the rights of any other VA resident when buying a firearm, but my NJ DL tells everyone otherwise. I agree getting out of NJ is a solution and one I will eventually take, but since my 94 year old mother still lives here I'm not in position to up and leave just yet.
I understand that handguns are a different matter to long guns as federal law prohibits the sale or transfer of a handgun to a nonresident of the state in which the handgun is being purchased. I would expect that FFLs will rely on the DL to prove residency, so that's a dead end. I may, however, be able to find a VA resident willing to do a private handgun sale based on my proof of VA residency, i.e. my tax and utility bills. I've seen handguns for sale, for example, at flea markets and garage sales.
The only information I could find on private sales from the VA State Police website was in the FAQ section, as follows:
What are the laws concerning the private sale of a handgun?
To privately sell a firearm, it is recommended that you safeguard information pertaining to the transaction such as the date the firearm was sold, the complete name and address of the buyer, and the make, model, and serial number of the firearm. The seller and buyer of a handgun must be a resident of the state in which the transfer occurs. Should the firearm ever be located at a crime scene, trace of the firearm will determine the licensed dealer who last sold the firearm and will identify the last buyer of the firearm. To have your name removed from this process, you may consider placing your firearm on consignment with a licensed dealer. This will also ensure that the firearm is transferred only to a lawfully eligible individual.
From the above it sure seems the sale would be legal. That said, with the regulations being as confusing as they are, if I did buy a handgun in a private sale in VA and it turned out the transaction was for some obscure reason in violation of some regulation, who is responsible, the buyer or the seller? I certainly don't want to break any laws.
TomVA
I understand that handguns are a different matter to long guns as federal law prohibits the sale or transfer of a handgun to a nonresident of the state in which the handgun is being purchased. I would expect that FFLs will rely on the DL to prove residency, so that's a dead end. I may, however, be able to find a VA resident willing to do a private handgun sale based on my proof of VA residency, i.e. my tax and utility bills. I've seen handguns for sale, for example, at flea markets and garage sales.
The only information I could find on private sales from the VA State Police website was in the FAQ section, as follows:
What are the laws concerning the private sale of a handgun?
To privately sell a firearm, it is recommended that you safeguard information pertaining to the transaction such as the date the firearm was sold, the complete name and address of the buyer, and the make, model, and serial number of the firearm. The seller and buyer of a handgun must be a resident of the state in which the transfer occurs. Should the firearm ever be located at a crime scene, trace of the firearm will determine the licensed dealer who last sold the firearm and will identify the last buyer of the firearm. To have your name removed from this process, you may consider placing your firearm on consignment with a licensed dealer. This will also ensure that the firearm is transferred only to a lawfully eligible individual.
From the above it sure seems the sale would be legal. That said, with the regulations being as confusing as they are, if I did buy a handgun in a private sale in VA and it turned out the transaction was for some obscure reason in violation of some regulation, who is responsible, the buyer or the seller? I certainly don't want to break any laws.
TomVA
In NJ, the bad guys are armed and the households are alarmed. In VA, the households are armed and the bad guys are alarmed.
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
Tom,
You sound like an intelligent thoughtful HONEST guy just wanting to exercise your legal rights.
Unfortunately the myriad laws on the books typically only serve to put people like you and me in jeopardy of failing to observe some obscure law or laws and the criminals end up with the guns no matter what the laws on the books may be.
If only our legislators understood this.
Sadly, emotions seem to rule and those who are afraid of guns end up trying (and often succeeding) in taking away our rights.
When a hurricane or tornado hits a town and kills a lot of people they have nobody and nothing to blame except nature. But when a crazy person kills a number of people with a gun, people look for someone or something to blame. How illogical is it to blame a device for the action? Yet it is a simple thing for people to grab hold of.
IMO you are correct that a VA to VA individual transfer of a handgun for you would be legal should you find a willing VA seller.
How ironic is it that the quoted text you show suggests you put the gun you find from a private seller into an FFL transfer? That would insure your sale would not happen!
A better solution to their issue would be for ANY private seller to be able to access the NICs system to at least determine if the prospective gun to be purchased was stolen and/or used in a reported crime!!! So far my understanding is that only law enforcement are able to do just that.
Instead our government leaders and gun banners want to insist that private transfers be further regulated, even though it seems our governments can't even enforce the huge number of onerous (to the law abiding) laws already on the books.
Actually and - again - ironically, your safest bet would be to go through the onerous gauntlet NJ has thrown up to handgun purchasers and buy your handgun in NJ, legally. It will take nearly a year and through all sorts of hoops, but it would be legal and doable.
Again with the ironies, once you got your Purchase Permit and buy your handgun in NJ, you'd need to be VERY CAREFUL transporting it between NJ and VA. This presents even more ridiculous problems: where do you keep your handgun? If you transport it back and forth, you could easily get in trouble with various state laws. If you leave it in VA when you are not there, it could be stolen and used in a crime.
NJ is notorious for searching transient cars, finding guns (often in the trunk unloaded and in cases), and putting honest people in jail who were simply transporting weapons from one place to another. This while their cities are riddled with crime. Most of the Northeast states are following suit.
If our governments would focus on finding and prosecuting criminals and leave gun owners alone (and even expand gun ownership and carrying by private citizens) it's likely the country would be a safer place.
Good luck.
Charlie
You sound like an intelligent thoughtful HONEST guy just wanting to exercise your legal rights.
Unfortunately the myriad laws on the books typically only serve to put people like you and me in jeopardy of failing to observe some obscure law or laws and the criminals end up with the guns no matter what the laws on the books may be.
If only our legislators understood this.
Sadly, emotions seem to rule and those who are afraid of guns end up trying (and often succeeding) in taking away our rights.
When a hurricane or tornado hits a town and kills a lot of people they have nobody and nothing to blame except nature. But when a crazy person kills a number of people with a gun, people look for someone or something to blame. How illogical is it to blame a device for the action? Yet it is a simple thing for people to grab hold of.
IMO you are correct that a VA to VA individual transfer of a handgun for you would be legal should you find a willing VA seller.
How ironic is it that the quoted text you show suggests you put the gun you find from a private seller into an FFL transfer? That would insure your sale would not happen!
A better solution to their issue would be for ANY private seller to be able to access the NICs system to at least determine if the prospective gun to be purchased was stolen and/or used in a reported crime!!! So far my understanding is that only law enforcement are able to do just that.
Instead our government leaders and gun banners want to insist that private transfers be further regulated, even though it seems our governments can't even enforce the huge number of onerous (to the law abiding) laws already on the books.
Actually and - again - ironically, your safest bet would be to go through the onerous gauntlet NJ has thrown up to handgun purchasers and buy your handgun in NJ, legally. It will take nearly a year and through all sorts of hoops, but it would be legal and doable.
Again with the ironies, once you got your Purchase Permit and buy your handgun in NJ, you'd need to be VERY CAREFUL transporting it between NJ and VA. This presents even more ridiculous problems: where do you keep your handgun? If you transport it back and forth, you could easily get in trouble with various state laws. If you leave it in VA when you are not there, it could be stolen and used in a crime.
NJ is notorious for searching transient cars, finding guns (often in the trunk unloaded and in cases), and putting honest people in jail who were simply transporting weapons from one place to another. This while their cities are riddled with crime. Most of the Northeast states are following suit.
If our governments would focus on finding and prosecuting criminals and leave gun owners alone (and even expand gun ownership and carrying by private citizens) it's likely the country would be a safer place.
Good luck.
Charlie
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/license ... e-resident
This is where you are getting hung up. Dealers still have to follow NJ law when selling to you EVEN though you are standing in a store in Virginia.
Virginia requires you to live in virginia for 183 days per calendar year to claim virginia residency.
now federal....
http://www.justice.gov/olc/2012/ATF90da ... -30-12.pdf
The federal level uses the 90-day rule as a test of residency. However you FAIL this test as you do not intend to make your permanent home Virginia, because you are planning to return to NJ, and spend > 6 months per year there.
If you attempt a private face-to-face sale in Virginia, this would be improper as you are not a Virginia resident.
IMO if you want to get past NJ's laws, then spend a few more weeks here, and change your drivers license to a VA one.
This is where you are getting hung up. Dealers still have to follow NJ law when selling to you EVEN though you are standing in a store in Virginia.
Virginia requires you to live in virginia for 183 days per calendar year to claim virginia residency.
now federal....
http://www.justice.gov/olc/2012/ATF90da ... -30-12.pdf
The federal level uses the 90-day rule as a test of residency. However you FAIL this test as you do not intend to make your permanent home Virginia, because you are planning to return to NJ, and spend > 6 months per year there.
If you attempt a private face-to-face sale in Virginia, this would be improper as you are not a Virginia resident.
IMO if you want to get past NJ's laws, then spend a few more weeks here, and change your drivers license to a VA one.
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
jdonovan,
I agree with your points as they relate to federal rules, FFL requirements, and even "residency", BUT there is a difference between residency and being a property owner and I think that has a bearing on FtoF transfers within VA.
I believe it would still be legal for Va property owners to carry out FtoF firearms transfers without regard to where they may have "legal residence" and/or a particular driver's license.
To make my point of how nonsensical the driver's license issue is:
When I first bought property in VA and built a house here, I had to eventually sell my house in NJ and close out my business there....easier said than done.
As a property owner in VA I could AND DID go to my local County Clerk and apply for and receive a VA Concealed Handgun Permit. I did this while maintaining my "residence" and driver's license in NJ. I also had vehicles registered in NJ and frankly didn't want to have to pay VA PPTax until I actually moved here.
Of course I couldn't buy a handgun through a FFL because under federal law I was required to how my primary ID (State DMV issued photo ID Card) which was still a NJ DL and dictated to all VA FFLs that they had to abide by NJ law even though I was in VA, a property owner, and holding a VA CHP.
A side note: 30 years ago when I wanted to buy a handgun in NJ, I went through all the arcane procedures to obtain a NJ Handgun Purchase Permit, it took six months. When I found a gun store with the piston on sale I wanted, I drove 2 hours, put my permit and money on the counter and the clerk said: "I'm sorry but your permit expired yesterday." The fine print had given me only 30 days to use a permit that had taken 6 months and a big invasion of my privacy to obtain. So I ended up getting a handgun within about a week through "alternate 'private sale' means" (you figure out what I mean by this).
Back to my story: So I went to VADMV and requested a VA Photo ID Card. They asked me if I meant a DL and I replied no, that I had a NJ DL, but owned property in VA and just wanted a VA ID Card. So I was issued one. With this VA ID Card being a Primary DMV issued Photo ID and my VA CHP, it was now legal for me to buy firearms through FFLs in VA.
Fast forward to this past Spring after having finally sold my NJ property. My NJ DL expired in March, so I went to the VA DMV to finally obtain my VA DL. I stupidly presented both my NJ DL and my VA ID Card to the clerk. I was then told that, since I had obtained a VA ID Card several years ago, my NJ DL had been canceled (by whom they wouldn't say) I tried to explain that my vehicles had been repeatedly renewed by NJ under my NJ license, so it couldn't have been canceled. This got me nowhere however and I was told since I no longer had a valid driver's license I would have to go through a complete new process for obtaining my VA DL. I had to take written and road driving tests and spend an entire day at the DMV.
But the fact remains that I did obtain a VA Photo ID Card while still maintaining my legal residence (and DL) in NJ and, with my CHP, was able to purchase firearms through VA FFLs, including handguns. Prior to that I just did what I had done in NJ 30 years ago when I needed a handgun for home defense, only in VA there was a good case IMO that I was not doing anything illegal.
Does anyone realize that it was only about two years ago that a federal law was passed (ironically signed by Obama) allowing current and retired state law enforcement officers to carry in all 50 states? Up until then any state could challenge the right of a sworn LE to carry across state lines (unless they could prove they were on official LE business). An out of state LE could actually be arrested and jailed for carrying in places like NJ and MA. This is how crazy the gun laws are in this supposed 2A land.
As stated in my previous post: a Federal Concealed Carry permit as an endorsement on a driver's license would go a long way to removing all these conflicting and nonsensical regulations and laws (and IMO make the country a lot safer). The criminals don't have to go to an FFL to buy a gun and they don't have to move to a state that allows citizens to carry. They are walking around our streets carrying their illegally bought guns and/or mentally unstable people are doing the same thing. It's only law-abiding citizens who are being preventing from owning/carrying.
Sorry, but another example of stupidity. My son was 21 when he was sworn as a Reserve Deputy Sheriff and qualified and wore his G22 when on duty. He also had a CHP and was legal to carry off duty as well. He was a fencer as well and on the college fencing team. His school would not even allow him to store his fencing sword on campus. As a sworn LE they wouldn't allow him to store or carry his side arm while on campus. When going on duty at the Sheriff's Office, he had to first put on his uniform in his dorm and then go to the SO to get his sidearm. How crazy is this? What if he had been in a lecture hall with 500 other students and a crazed gunman came in? He was a sworn, qualified LE but because he was also a student he was prohibited from carrying while on campus. ?????
I'll stop now.
Charlie
I agree with your points as they relate to federal rules, FFL requirements, and even "residency", BUT there is a difference between residency and being a property owner and I think that has a bearing on FtoF transfers within VA.
I believe it would still be legal for Va property owners to carry out FtoF firearms transfers without regard to where they may have "legal residence" and/or a particular driver's license.
To make my point of how nonsensical the driver's license issue is:
When I first bought property in VA and built a house here, I had to eventually sell my house in NJ and close out my business there....easier said than done.
As a property owner in VA I could AND DID go to my local County Clerk and apply for and receive a VA Concealed Handgun Permit. I did this while maintaining my "residence" and driver's license in NJ. I also had vehicles registered in NJ and frankly didn't want to have to pay VA PPTax until I actually moved here.
Of course I couldn't buy a handgun through a FFL because under federal law I was required to how my primary ID (State DMV issued photo ID Card) which was still a NJ DL and dictated to all VA FFLs that they had to abide by NJ law even though I was in VA, a property owner, and holding a VA CHP.
A side note: 30 years ago when I wanted to buy a handgun in NJ, I went through all the arcane procedures to obtain a NJ Handgun Purchase Permit, it took six months. When I found a gun store with the piston on sale I wanted, I drove 2 hours, put my permit and money on the counter and the clerk said: "I'm sorry but your permit expired yesterday." The fine print had given me only 30 days to use a permit that had taken 6 months and a big invasion of my privacy to obtain. So I ended up getting a handgun within about a week through "alternate 'private sale' means" (you figure out what I mean by this).
Back to my story: So I went to VADMV and requested a VA Photo ID Card. They asked me if I meant a DL and I replied no, that I had a NJ DL, but owned property in VA and just wanted a VA ID Card. So I was issued one. With this VA ID Card being a Primary DMV issued Photo ID and my VA CHP, it was now legal for me to buy firearms through FFLs in VA.
Fast forward to this past Spring after having finally sold my NJ property. My NJ DL expired in March, so I went to the VA DMV to finally obtain my VA DL. I stupidly presented both my NJ DL and my VA ID Card to the clerk. I was then told that, since I had obtained a VA ID Card several years ago, my NJ DL had been canceled (by whom they wouldn't say) I tried to explain that my vehicles had been repeatedly renewed by NJ under my NJ license, so it couldn't have been canceled. This got me nowhere however and I was told since I no longer had a valid driver's license I would have to go through a complete new process for obtaining my VA DL. I had to take written and road driving tests and spend an entire day at the DMV.
But the fact remains that I did obtain a VA Photo ID Card while still maintaining my legal residence (and DL) in NJ and, with my CHP, was able to purchase firearms through VA FFLs, including handguns. Prior to that I just did what I had done in NJ 30 years ago when I needed a handgun for home defense, only in VA there was a good case IMO that I was not doing anything illegal.
Does anyone realize that it was only about two years ago that a federal law was passed (ironically signed by Obama) allowing current and retired state law enforcement officers to carry in all 50 states? Up until then any state could challenge the right of a sworn LE to carry across state lines (unless they could prove they were on official LE business). An out of state LE could actually be arrested and jailed for carrying in places like NJ and MA. This is how crazy the gun laws are in this supposed 2A land.
As stated in my previous post: a Federal Concealed Carry permit as an endorsement on a driver's license would go a long way to removing all these conflicting and nonsensical regulations and laws (and IMO make the country a lot safer). The criminals don't have to go to an FFL to buy a gun and they don't have to move to a state that allows citizens to carry. They are walking around our streets carrying their illegally bought guns and/or mentally unstable people are doing the same thing. It's only law-abiding citizens who are being preventing from owning/carrying.
Sorry, but another example of stupidity. My son was 21 when he was sworn as a Reserve Deputy Sheriff and qualified and wore his G22 when on duty. He also had a CHP and was legal to carry off duty as well. He was a fencer as well and on the college fencing team. His school would not even allow him to store his fencing sword on campus. As a sworn LE they wouldn't allow him to store or carry his side arm while on campus. When going on duty at the Sheriff's Office, he had to first put on his uniform in his dorm and then go to the SO to get his sidearm. How crazy is this? What if he had been in a lecture hall with 500 other students and a crazed gunman came in? He was a sworn, qualified LE but because he was also a student he was prohibited from carrying while on campus. ?????
I'll stop now.
Charlie
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
As was noted above, there are different kinds of "residency". For the purposes of voting, taxes, and driving, I agree you are a resident of the state in which you live at least 183 days per year (>half the year). For purchasing a firearm, however, residency is defined by the U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in their "Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide" (http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/d ... 5300-4.pdf page 39) as follows:
State of Residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.
Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does not have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not have a home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.
Example 2 above describes me exactly - I own a home in NJ and I own a home in VA, and I travel back and forth between the two, spending most of the spring and summer in VA. Therefore according to the BATFE I am a resident of VA when in VA and should be entitled to the same rules and rights as any other VA resident when purchasing a firearm. The VA State Police website lays out the VA state laws regarding firearm purchases and it is silent on the definition of residency, so therefore the federal BATFE definition should prevail.
The VA State Police website says one must present a primary ID and a secondary ID to buy a gun. They say: "The primary form of ID shall consist of a valid photo-ID form issued by a governmental agency of the Commonwealth or of the prospective purchaser or transferee’s home state..." They also say: "Federal law prohibits the sale or transfer of a handgun to a nonresident of the state in which the handgun is being purchased." Since I am a resident of VA according to the BATFE, and I have a valid photo NJ DL, I comply with the VA State Police requirements as well as those of the BATFE.
So I should be able to legally buy a handgun in VA with proof of my identy (NJ DL) and proof of VA residency (tax and utility bills).
All this is nice to know, but it doesn't change the fact that VA FFLs want to see a Virginia photo ID to sell a handgun. So I went to the VA DMV and requested a photo ID. They refused unless I turn in my NJ DL. Seems they have a rule on their website that says they will only issue a non-driver's license VA photo ID to residents who do not have a DL in ANY state.
So, in summary, I am a VA resident, but cannot get a VA photo ID to prove it, and FFLs demand it. Catch 22.
TomVA
State of Residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.
Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does not have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not have a home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.
Example 2 above describes me exactly - I own a home in NJ and I own a home in VA, and I travel back and forth between the two, spending most of the spring and summer in VA. Therefore according to the BATFE I am a resident of VA when in VA and should be entitled to the same rules and rights as any other VA resident when purchasing a firearm. The VA State Police website lays out the VA state laws regarding firearm purchases and it is silent on the definition of residency, so therefore the federal BATFE definition should prevail.
The VA State Police website says one must present a primary ID and a secondary ID to buy a gun. They say: "The primary form of ID shall consist of a valid photo-ID form issued by a governmental agency of the Commonwealth or of the prospective purchaser or transferee’s home state..." They also say: "Federal law prohibits the sale or transfer of a handgun to a nonresident of the state in which the handgun is being purchased." Since I am a resident of VA according to the BATFE, and I have a valid photo NJ DL, I comply with the VA State Police requirements as well as those of the BATFE.
So I should be able to legally buy a handgun in VA with proof of my identy (NJ DL) and proof of VA residency (tax and utility bills).
All this is nice to know, but it doesn't change the fact that VA FFLs want to see a Virginia photo ID to sell a handgun. So I went to the VA DMV and requested a photo ID. They refused unless I turn in my NJ DL. Seems they have a rule on their website that says they will only issue a non-driver's license VA photo ID to residents who do not have a DL in ANY state.
So, in summary, I am a VA resident, but cannot get a VA photo ID to prove it, and FFLs demand it. Catch 22.
TomVA
In NJ, the bad guys are armed and the households are alarmed. In VA, the households are armed and the bad guys are alarmed.
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
The problem is it puts the burden of doing the right legal thing on the FFL's shoulders. As a FFL holder, if you can't make me really comfortable that the transaction is 100% legal and above board, I'm not going to complete the sale. The $20-40 I'm going to get from the sale isn't worth the risk to my license.TomVA wrote:
So, in summary, I am a VA resident, but cannot get a VA photo ID to prove it, and FFLs demand it. Catch 22.
So you say you spend time in Va, but how can you PROVE it to the store you arer buying from. Basically it comes down to a "trust me" from the customer. I'll tell ya, the one rule in the FFL biz is NEVER EVER trust the customers word. A few might be genuine, and honest but most who ask you to trust them are not trustworthy.
Without a primary ID from the state you're standing in its going to be real hard to get a FFL to sell to you.
Also Without a primary ID from the state you're standing in its going to be real hard to get a knowledgeable private seller to sell to you. Most private sellers ask for proof of residency via a DL and either a voter ID card, or CHP to help prove non-felon status.
rock and a hard place I know.
Re: FA purchase by out-of-state property owner
Jdonovan
I hear you and understand your point of view. When we first moved to VA, my wife lived here full time and I had to commute. We are in the sticks but close to an Interstate exit and I wanted her to have a pistol for protection. She had VA DL, voter ID, CHP, the works. We went to Richmond to a gun show to buy a Glock. The two of us are shopping the tables and, of course, she's asking me for advice and I'm obviously showing/helping her. So she pulls out her credit card and starts filling out the BATF Form BUT the owner comes over and DEMANDS to see MY Driver's License. He wouldn't sell her the gun without seeing MY DL. She was pissed because she thought he was discriminating on her because she was a woman, but I knew exactly what he was doing. He was doing Mayor Bloomberg's bidding by assuming it was a straw purchase. By showing him my NJ DL, he felt that's exactly what it was.
Does anyone see the danger here?
We have all these gun rights orgs saying things like "no compromise" and "we won (when it's by one or two votes in the Senate)" and hitching their ride to the Republicans and the Tea Party....................and now they have all the FFLs scared to death about losing their licenses. In DC and Maryland they are already scared away or forced out and then don't even exist in Chicago. None of this stops crime, but it is gradually eroding the 2A.
People Open Carrying scaring the public doesn't help even though it's their right in certain places - now. The radicals in the 60s figured out it was legal to carry automatic machine guns into the California Capital in Sacramento and did just that. Boy they showed "the man" all right - right up until California changed it's law.
All the gun rights orgs are limiting the fight by their being fragmented and distributed and fighting among one another for newspaper copy and membership dues. This limits the total effectiveness of gun rights. The executive directors of the big orgs still get their jets and their expense accounts and their big salaries and the leaders of the little and state orgs still get to be on TV, etc. But gradually our rights are being diminished, even by FFLs themselves who are being more and more afraid of selling guns to the public.
This thread is just ONE TINY EXAMPLE of the bigger problem of our rights being diminished and eliminated.
What do we do about it? We write little messages back and forth to one another with our sad stories and make big talk about not letting anyone have our gun until they pry it from our cold dead hand.
Right now we have one governor candidate running who wants to take away women's rights and another wanting to take away our gun rights.
There is a solution to all of this, but it isn't voting for EITHER the R or the D at election time and it also isn't following the one note Tea Party.
I feel for Tom's problem. Been there. Done that.
But the problem is much bigger, getting worse, doesn't have a good ending until there is a much better strategic vision than all the gun rights orgs I send dues to come up with.
Charlie
I hear you and understand your point of view. When we first moved to VA, my wife lived here full time and I had to commute. We are in the sticks but close to an Interstate exit and I wanted her to have a pistol for protection. She had VA DL, voter ID, CHP, the works. We went to Richmond to a gun show to buy a Glock. The two of us are shopping the tables and, of course, she's asking me for advice and I'm obviously showing/helping her. So she pulls out her credit card and starts filling out the BATF Form BUT the owner comes over and DEMANDS to see MY Driver's License. He wouldn't sell her the gun without seeing MY DL. She was pissed because she thought he was discriminating on her because she was a woman, but I knew exactly what he was doing. He was doing Mayor Bloomberg's bidding by assuming it was a straw purchase. By showing him my NJ DL, he felt that's exactly what it was.
Does anyone see the danger here?
We have all these gun rights orgs saying things like "no compromise" and "we won (when it's by one or two votes in the Senate)" and hitching their ride to the Republicans and the Tea Party....................and now they have all the FFLs scared to death about losing their licenses. In DC and Maryland they are already scared away or forced out and then don't even exist in Chicago. None of this stops crime, but it is gradually eroding the 2A.
People Open Carrying scaring the public doesn't help even though it's their right in certain places - now. The radicals in the 60s figured out it was legal to carry automatic machine guns into the California Capital in Sacramento and did just that. Boy they showed "the man" all right - right up until California changed it's law.
All the gun rights orgs are limiting the fight by their being fragmented and distributed and fighting among one another for newspaper copy and membership dues. This limits the total effectiveness of gun rights. The executive directors of the big orgs still get their jets and their expense accounts and their big salaries and the leaders of the little and state orgs still get to be on TV, etc. But gradually our rights are being diminished, even by FFLs themselves who are being more and more afraid of selling guns to the public.
This thread is just ONE TINY EXAMPLE of the bigger problem of our rights being diminished and eliminated.
What do we do about it? We write little messages back and forth to one another with our sad stories and make big talk about not letting anyone have our gun until they pry it from our cold dead hand.
Right now we have one governor candidate running who wants to take away women's rights and another wanting to take away our gun rights.
There is a solution to all of this, but it isn't voting for EITHER the R or the D at election time and it also isn't following the one note Tea Party.
I feel for Tom's problem. Been there. Done that.
But the problem is much bigger, getting worse, doesn't have a good ending until there is a much better strategic vision than all the gun rights orgs I send dues to come up with.
Charlie