It's the gangs, stupid.

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Mindflayer
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It's the gangs, stupid.

Post by Mindflayer »

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/23/justice/c ... ?hpt=hp_t2
An assault-style rifle with a high-capacity magazine was used in the shooting, which appears to be gang-related, McCarthy has said.
They mention the assault-type rifle over and over. Then they say, "Oh, but Chicacgo is not that bad." Is this to give Emmanuel and Obama a free pass?

How about we focus on the real issue - gang violence?
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FiremanBob
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Re: It's the gangs, stupid.

Post by FiremanBob »

Gangs are one reason that citizens need high-capacity magazines in semi-auto rifles.

There are other reasons as well.
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GeneFrenkle
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Re: It's the gangs, stupid.

Post by GeneFrenkle »

We need a reason?

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Re: It's the gangs, stupid.

Post by Swampman »

GeneFrenkle wrote:We need a reason?

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+1
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FiremanBob
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Re: It's the gangs, stupid.

Post by FiremanBob »

We don't need a reason to exercise our rights, but that doesn't mean we can't also have good reasons. They come in handy when the libtards ask "Why do you need that anyway?"
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MarcSpaz
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Re: It's the gangs, stupid.

Post by MarcSpaz »

What drives me nuts is that I have found no "industry definition" of an assault rifle or assault style rifle. It is a completely made-up, subjective opinion that changes by the minute depending on who you ask and when. I would think that an assault riffle would be any rifle used to commit an assault, no?

With regard to small arms manufacturing the only classes I found are...
pistols (variety)
carbines
rifles
shotguns
sub-machine guns
storm rifles
squad automatic weapons
general-purpose machine guns

Am I missing something?

Oh, right! Assault rifles are defined in 2 industries. I almost forgot media and legislation. Never mind. My mistake.
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GeneFrenkle
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Re: It's the gangs, stupid.

Post by GeneFrenkle »

Why would one even need to have any justification or reason handy for something that is inherent in being? It is an unalienable right. It is not a privilege, inalienable right, or anything else.

I have 10 fingers because it makes using a rake easier.

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WFarm
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Re: It's the gangs, stupid.

Post by WFarm »

I especially like it when the AR-15 goes from being an "assault weapon" to a "high-powered assault weapon" such as was used to describe the rifle stolen from the trunk of a cop car yesterday.


The 5.56 is a nice round and a high speed round but isn't a "high power" round.
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gunderwood
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Re: It's the gangs, stupid.

Post by gunderwood »

MarcSpaz wrote:What drives me nuts is that I have found no "industry definition" of an assault rifle or assault style rifle. It is a completely made-up, subjective opinion that changes by the minute depending on who you ask and when. I would think that an assault riffle would be any rifle used to commit an assault, no?

With regard to small arms manufacturing the only classes I found are...
pistols (variety)
carbines
rifles
shotguns
sub-machine guns
storm rifles
squad automatic weapons
general-purpose machine guns

Am I missing something?

Oh, right! Assault rifles are defined in 2 industries. I almost forgot media and legislation. Never mind. My mistake.
There is a military definition that's been around for decades (60's IIRC when the M16 was adopted...definition requires the ability to select fire...aka "machine gun"), but anything that qualified as one is heavily regulated under the NFA. They closed the registry for real assault weapons in 86'. As such, a real/legal assault weapon typically costs tens of thousands of dollars and can take upwards of 1-2years for the BATFE to approve the paperwork. The "assault rifle" definition comes from the shorter engagement ranges (primarily due to the increased effectiveness of medium range weapons/explosives that could be fitted to infantry/armor) for infantry that prompted the move from the larger/heavier but more powerful battle rifles to the smaller/lighter but much less capable at range assault rifles. The name was chosen by the Germans and their "storm" rifle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StG_44 The Russians weren't far behind with the AK-47 (the real ones, not the look alike which don't have select fire but are what the media/politicians hold up as AK-47s). It should be noted that the Germans didn't issue that many of them because they filled a niche, they did not replace the battle rifles. The Russians eventually did, but their AK-47 did not push the concept as far as the American M16 would (nearly two decades later!) or as far as the Russians would with the AK-74 and the American M4.

The US military resisted this trend with the M14 for many reasons. One that can't be understated is that the US was woefully behind in state of the art because of the NFA (one of the military generals called up the president and accused him of treason in 34' because of the NFA...said even military small arms would fall behind our enemies by decades...he was proven right for anything the NFA touched). The M14 had a very short lifespan as a general issue small arm because of this, although the abundance of modernized M14s, AR10s, etc. serving as some variant of a "marksman" rifle on the battle field today shows that there is still some need to reach out.

It wasn't until later in 94' that politicians created a "assault weapon" category. It was and still is a complete fabrication which is why the definition isn't consistent and changes over time. Simple put, an assault weapon is anything they want to regulate or ban. They've been partially successful only because the average American doesn't understand the two primary changes that occurred in small arms design since the 40's. They are: materials and ergonomics. Every firearm, within recent memory, use to be made of wood and steel. While there were mechanical changes to how they functioned, that recipe didn't change. However, new materials started becoming available that dramatically changed firearm design. Aluminium, titanium, carbon fiber, polymers, rubbers, etc. These new materials freed up small arms designers to fix some of the traditional small arms problems, make the platforms lighter, etc. One significant change was ergonomics. Some work was done with the traditional rifles wood stock to make it better, but the inherent properties of the material (wood) limit what could be done. You see a few attempts (e.g. tommy guns, AKs), but a real focus ergonomics didn't arrive until designs like the AR15. The AR15 really pushed the limits of material usage in firearms and ergonomics. It also pushed mostly new concept of modularity. The design was so radically different that it took some time to catch on (old timers are a stubborn bunch :whistle: ), but once it did it quickly became the best selling design in the US.

There is much confusion over the AR15 and similar modern designs because they look like or similar to their military counterparts. Kind of like how a HUMVEE can be purposed for either civilian or military use. The military adopted the AR15 design, but with their own specific requirements (which generally are not available to civilians). However, to the untrained eye, the two look identical set side by side. However, that's not just true of the AR15, but of all modern rifles. They all look similar because the human body hasn't changed since the focus of ergonomics. It's not like there is a sudden need for a top mounted pistol grip because we have mutants running around. The same is true of materials.

Saying that an AR15 isn't your grandfathers hunting rifle is like lamenting that the current generation Ford Focus isn't like a Model-T. :bangin:
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.
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Re: It's the gangs, stupid.

Post by gunderwood »

WFarm wrote:I especially like it when the AR-15 goes from being an "assault weapon" to a "high-powered assault weapon" such as was used to describe the rifle stolen from the trunk of a cop car yesterday.


The 5.56 is a nice round and a high speed round but isn't a "high power" round.
This confusion comes from NRA sanctioned matches. Remember the NRA's purpose was to promote general shooting skills in the civilian populace in the event they were required for military service. Thus, the NRA created rifle matches using the common, cheap, easy to train .22lr and then using military pattern rifles which became "high" power compared to the weakest commonly used cartridge (.22lr). Over the years, the military's rifles have changed but the format remained the same. High powered rifle was whatever the military was using and that basically meant anything great than .22lr.

Stepping outside the NRA's framework, more common discussions about the capabilities of various rifle cartridges revolve around the game which they easily take or calculations like energy, etc. Felt recoil is generally closely related as well. For game considerations, .223Remington (aka 5.56x45mm when the military adopted it) is a "varmint" cartridge and that typically means coyote is the largest game commonly taken with it; although there are a handful of states that permit deer, but it's generally advised against. In technical terms, most of these "varmint" cartridges top out around 1500ft-lbs of energy, although there are notable exceptions. Cartridges typically ok for taking medium sized game (like deer which are somewhat similar to humans) are typically in the 2500-3500ft-lbs range. Again, there are notable exceptions (e.g. 30-30).

The 5.56mm qualifies as high power under NRA match rules, but does not as far as anyone looking at the practical application of the cartridge (hunting or otherwise). Ironically, not even the military considers it high power as that was the whole point of getting away from the "high" powered 7.62x51mm (aka .308Win) cartridge.

The bottom line is that the media will use whatever language or term they can to make the rifle appear scary. I'm fairly certain they would make a Revolutionary War musket shooting a ~.75" ball sound impressive since it's "more than 3x the military's assault rifle bullet of only .22"!!!!!!"
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.
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