The Appleseed Project

[FiremanBob]

We shot at the Appleseed Project clinic at the Cavalier Club this weekend. Had a wonderful time, even though the mornings were a bit cold. The shoot was sold out and I was pleased to see about 10 women and two children, and a number of first-time shooters who were learning how to handle a rifle and shoot well without having the handicap of bad habits. We both shot very well, improved our scores dramatically throughout the program, met a bunch of very nice people, and saw a bald eagle on Sunday afternoon.

I highly recommend Appleseed for anyone who wants to raise his marksmanship to a higher level. Once you qualify for Rifleman (210 out of 250), the challenge of shooting for a perfect score keeps it plenty interesting. And since the 25-meter course is ideally shot with .22LR, you can blow off 400+ rounds in a weekend without breaking the budget.

For more info, go here: http://www.appleseedinfo.org. There are two more shoots in Virginia in 2012, in Mechanicsville and Lynchburg.

And thanks to the members of the Cavalier R&P Club, for the use of their beautiful range.

[SHMIV]

I wish that I had time to do this. I'd like to do this with my boy, and had flirted with the idea of doing it this year. Alas, work and school gets in the way.

[Jakeiscrazy]

I went a while back and learned a lot. Great rifle instruction and very very safe shooting. How was Caviler? I thought about joining that range but haven done so yet.

[FiremanBob]

Cavalier is a beautiful club and the members I have met so far are great guys. Lots of land, very well designed and maintained. I think the longest rifle range is 500 yards. The clubhouse may be a little small, but the shooting facilities are terrific.

[littlesamurai]

I wanted to attend on December to the Maryland one (I live in NOVA and the closest one in VA is kinda far away), but all the spots are taken, so I guess I'll have to wait to the next one

[mrjam2jab]

I wish that I had time to do this. I'd like to do this with my boy, and had flirted with the idea of doing it this year. Alas, work and school gets in the way.

I have the same problem. Plan to do it with Daughter #1. I work weekends but would take off for this. Originally looked at a weekend in April than then a weekend in Sept and then again Oct...each time something else came up.

[KaosDad]

FiremanBob - I was there too!!!! I took myself off the range at about 2PM on Sunday because I was so fatigued I started making stupid mistakes and did not want to be a safety hazard. I had a feeling there was another VGOF member there - disturbance in The Force and all.

[Chasbo00]

I would to give the qualification course a try. Is it possible to just show up and just do that?

[M1A4ME]

If you just want to shoot the targets you can probably go to the RWVA/Appleseed website and buy them from the "Appleseed Store".

There's more to it than just targets.

Used to be 4 stages, 10 rounds per stage, different positions

Stage 1, standing, 10 round in the magazine, one target sized to simulate 100 yd. range, time limit of either 1 or 2 minutes.

Stage 2, start standing, drop to sitting, 10 rounds (2 in first magazine, 8 in the second magazine - so you do a magazine change and a position change during the stage), 2 targets sized to simulate 200 yd. range (5 rounds on each target), time limit was 50 seconds at one time.

Stage 3, start standing, drop to prone, 10 rounds (2 in first magazine, 8 in the second magazine - so you do a magazine change and a position change during the stage), 3 targets sized to simulate 300 yd. range (3 rounds in target 1, 3 rounds in target 2, 4 rounds in target 3), time limit used to be 60 seconds.

Stage 4, prone, 10 rounds in the magazine, 4 targets sized to simulate 400 yd. range (2 rounds in first target, 2 rounds in the second target, 3 rounds in the third and fourth targets), time limit used to be about 5 minutes (I think).

Challenging? Yes. Why is it challenging? Small targets, position changes, magazine changes, time limits, target transitions on 3 stages, rifles barking all around you, you're tired, stiff/sore, hot/cold/wet, etc.

I need to go to one at Cavalier when the weather is nice. Been trying to talk my youngest son and nephew into going to one. Me the my youngest went to one back in 2006. Its past time.

Used to be women, kids under 21, and active duty military personnel didn't have to pay the fees, just bring their rifle, ammo, shooting gear, etc. - and an open mind willing to listen, learn and apply what they teach.

[KaosDad]

That's the way it still is. What has been discontinued is the RWVA Shooter's Opportunity Card which let you re-try for a year with no additional charge. That's over with.

[Chasbo00]

I used to shoot a lot of position rifle, both small bore and high power. But, it's been well over 40 years since I did any of that. I'm just curious if I can qualify as a rifleman first try with my 45 year old Ruger 10/22. My old Ruger 10/22 also has a 45 year old Redfield four power 3/4" tube scope and my 65 year old eyes will need that help.

[FiremanBob]

It would be great to see you out there. The 2013 schedule isn't posted yet, but I expect there will be about 10 events in VA next year. Cavalier seems to be the most generous host in terms of number of dates, and it's a great facility.

Here's the link for info: www.appleseedinfo.org

[M1A4ME]

Don't think of as anything but an opportunity to learn to shoot your rifle better.

Take a .22 if that's what you want to shoot. After the weekend, if you're a small game hunter, you should be able to make more/better shots on squirrel heads with that .22. Your groups should tighten up if you learn to apply what they teach. The 4 MOA (Minutes Of Angle) they talk about is about 1" at 25 meters (the range you shoot at) and is about the size of squirrels head.

One of the neat things is they have you shoot a target on Saturday morning, before the instruction/practice begins. You keep that target and then shoot again Saturday afternoon at the same type of target. Compare the two to see how much you've improved.

Its not a competition. Its not a "shooting match". The only competition is you working to improve your shooting. Scoring your target helps you measure your improvement.

You'll learn a lot about yourself, your rifle and your ability and you should come out of it with more confidence in your ability to make your rifle/ammo do what you want it to do.

[Chasbo00]

I doubt the fundamentals of position rifle shooting have changed in the last 40 plus years and as I said I used to do a lot of it, so I don't think I need to relearn how to shoot a rifle in the standing, sitting and prone positions or how to use a sling. However, I do wonder how well I can do regarding meeting Appleseed's Rifleman standard after a 40-year plus layoff, but I think it would be fun to find out.

I'm a big fan of Appleseed. What I really like is Appleseed's performance standard that, from what I read, is challenging yet both reasonable and attainable for nearly anyone who is willing to learn how to apply the fundamentals. And it's attainable without the need for anything beyond a basic .22 LR with decent sights. I think Appleseed also has done a great job of packaging their program into a fun event and maintaining an effective instructor cadre. None of these things are easy to do, especially over the span of some years - hats off to Appleseed!

The only competition is you working to improve your shooting. Scoring your target helps you measure your improvement.

Yes, but with Appleseed there is a particular goal or standard. It's 210 or better on the qualification course. My understanding is that getting Appleseed attendees to meet this standard is an Appleseed goal itself, is it not?

So, back to my case specifically. I'm interested, more curious actually, in how well I can do on the qualification course after a 40 plus year layoff and with my 45-year-old Ruger 10/22 that's not been modified during the past 45 years. I'm arrogant enough to believe I don't need any additional rifle training. But, as previously stated, I'm a big fan of the Appleseed Project and will happily pay full fare to help the project even though all I want to do at this point is give the qualification course a try.

[dusterdude]

Im with you,i shot expert all 3 years i was in the corps,havent picked up a rifle in 30 years, my curiosity is starting to overwhelm me

[FiremanBob]

The guy to my left was a very experienced shooter who was there to see how well he could do. Even he didn't shoot a single 250 all day, with a scoped Marlin. So it certainly is a challenge. But it is not head-to-head competition, at least not formally. I have seen groups shoot together and of course they have a rivalry going.

The first day is mostly instructional. If you just want to shoot AQTs you can sign up for the second day only, for a lower fee than the full weekend.

Appleseed is a combination of marksmanship training and American heritage, with the history focusing on the story of the beginning of the Revolution on April 19, 1775. The history makes the marksmanship meaningful. The marksmanship helps round out one's ability to be a fully independent citizen. They go well together.

For the competitive aspect, I'm writing a proposal for my club to run competitive AQT for rimfire rifles, sort of an informal and friendlier version of the NRA 3-position match, using AQT targets.

[M1A4ME]

With my M16A1 in Basic and AIT and my M14 at my permanent duty station I also fired expert when qualifying. When we had live fire exercises my squad leader designated me to be one of two guys in the squad that took on the longer range more difficult to see/hit targets. When they had the riots in DC in 76 or77 I was one of 3 guys in the company who was told to report to the company commander to be issued live ammo so we could protect the rest of the company if we were fired on when when/if we were sent into DC (we were not, but I spent several hours sitting in the hallway downstairs waiting).

I've never missed a deer with my M1A. I have missed a couple of groundhogs with my varmint rifle.
I used to squirrel hunt with my Ruger .22 pistol (head shots, that doesn't mess up any meat). I didn't qualify for a patch at my first/only Appleseed. I did at the RBC I atttended the next spring (several times) with my M1A.

This thing about the AQT (in my opinion) is the multiple targets on the last 3 stages. You can shoot a nice group and not have it where you want it on the target and this tends to happen in those multiple target stages. When you shoot 5 or 10 shots at one target you don't have the issue with breaking that firing position you "built" for the first target. You have to do it for every target. Yes, after awhile it begins to come "naturally" meaning, you don't have to think about it and make yourself do it. Your body/mind just does it and you put the shots where they need to be.

No matter how many guns I shoot, or targets, or places I shoot, I will always remember Cabinboy looking at me and my target and saying, "Hey, nice groups, any idea why they aren't on the target?" At the time I didn't know, now I do. NPOA (natural point of aim). You have to have it for every target of the stage, not just the first one. So every time you shoot the first target and have to move to the next one you have to have NPOA again, and again for the next target. If you don't, the group will be somewhere else beside in that 5 ring. It's cool as hell when it starts coming together for you and you realize that now you know why you are getting good groups where you want them on the target.

You may not pick it all up at an Appleseed (if you used to know and use the techniques they should come back to you - you should progress faster than a new person to rifle shooting) and many people attend 2 or 3 before they begin to "get it" and "use it".

I'm not trying to put anyone down. I taught at Appleseeds for 3 or 4 years. The average number of attendees who shoot a score high enough to get that rifleman's patch is about 12 to 15% per Appleseed. Thirty people attend, you''ll usually get to hand out about 3 to 5 patches. Not always, but usually. Handing out patches is a good feeling. You know there is another "rifleman" in the country when you put that patch in someone's left hand and shake their right hand.

Want to try something cool? Take that "redcoat" target you shoot first thing Saturday morning at an Appleseed and do this. That target is 1 each of the simulated 100, 200, 300 and 400 yd. targets and one that simulates (in size) a head shot at 250 yds. You shoot it like this at the Appleseed, prone, 13 rounds in the magazine (if your rifle has a magazine that holds 13 rounds, if not, 10 rounds in one and 3 rounds in a zecond magazine) and you put 3 rounds each on the 100, 200, 300 and 400 yds. simulated targets and then 1 shot on the 250 yd. simulated head shot. Now, for a twist that makes it harder (but gives you a real thrill when you do it) shoot round 1 at the 100 yd. target, round 2 at the 200 yd. target, round 3 at the 300 yd. target, round 4 at the 400 yd target, start back at the 100 yd. target and work your way through the four targets again with 1 round a piece and then go through the four targets again and then, after putting 3 rounds on each target, 1 target at a time, put that 13th round on the 250 yd. headshot target. That's changing your position for each shot and working your way through 3 times as many targets and its a really good feeling to walk up there and see a little group (like you'd shot 3 shot groups on each target instead of 3 single shot "groups" on each target.

That's a good feeling.

Anyway, go shooting, learn to shoot better, pass on what you learn to others and have lots of fun.

[FiremanBob]

Great post. Some day I'll have an M1A. Unfortunately, not soon enough.

[Chasbo00]

The first day is mostly instructional. If you just want to shoot AQTs you can sign up for the second day only, for a lower fee than the full weekend.

Ah, this sounds like what I'm looking to do - Thanks!

For the competitive aspect, I'm writing a proposal for my club to run competitive AQT for rimfire rifles, sort of an informal and friendlier version of the NRA 3-position match, using AQT targets.

Sounds interesting. What is your club and its location?

[FiremanBob]

Chasbo, I'll post a follow-up after the club approves the proposal and the project goes live. Right now it's still in the first draft on my computer, haven't even shown anything to the Safety Committee yet.