All-steel subcompact

Atamisk · Post by **Atamisk** » Sun, 01 Apr 2012 16:29:58

Hello all,

I am seriously considering getting a smaller, more concealable gun to compliment my 1911. I've tried glocks and similar polymer-lower guns, and i must say i just prefer the feel of a steel frame. I've been looking for cantidates for an all-steel gun that's small enough to easily conceal in Virginia summers, and i've only been really able to find these two:

The CZ-USA CZ-83 is a nice gun chambered in .380 ACP. Now, I held this gun at the gun show this weekend, and i really like it, i'm just concerned the power won't be there with such wimpily charged round. As an added bonus, EVERYTHING about this pistol is ambidextrous, which is a major plus being i'm a lefty. Also, due to the SA/DA design, the takeup on the trigger is mercifully short, and it's impressively snappy.

The only other gun i really considered was the compact 1911 most places offer. This is pretty self-explanitory. I already know i love shooting the 1911 and the trigger is uniquely crisp. The only problem is that i'd have a hard time justifying buying "The same gun", because it's not a whole lot more concealable than a FS '11.

My question: would an avid .45 shooter be comfortable and happy with a .380 carry pistol? Is there an option "c"?

Thanks,
Aaron

OleMan · Post by **OleMan** » Sun, 01 Apr 2012 17:05:59

Just my personal thoughts - the .380 seems to be the minimum personal defense round, but I won't use it because it won't deliver enough energy to be an effective stopper round. If one can handle any of the more powerful semi-auto rounds then go with the more powerful rounds - 9 mm, .40 S & W and the .357 Sig as well as the .45 ACP. Compact vs sub-compact for concealed carry? How big a person are you, how easy is it for you to conceal. What size frame is best for your hands? How much mag capacity is adequate for you? Do you like the sights? Does the pistol seem "balanced" and "point naturally" for you? Is there "stuff" on the frame, grip and slide that might slow an emergency draw? What do reviews and owners experience say about these and other considerations - especially reliability? Stopping power and reliability seem to be the top two to me.

Visit the manufacturers' website. I think there will be multiple choices in concealable pistols in either steel or alloy frame. You looked at a CA - check CZ's. For example, the compact CZ-75 in 9 mm is steel framed. They have a subcompact CZ-2075 in 9 mm or .40 S&W. http://www.cz-usa.com/

I have changed my mind about polymer pistols in the last several years after handling several well known manufacturer's offerings, and shooting both a compact Glock 9 mm and a Ruger SR9C. The frame is polymer but it is heavy rigid polymer and is protected from wear by a steel "cover" for the slide to operate against. My next pistol purchase will be a compact 9 mm or .40 S&W. The ones I have seen, handled and fired - along with reviews - make me think they are the way to go for self defense.

Again - just my thoughts. Lots of other folks on this forum, such as folks who own and fire lots of pistols, competitive shooters, retired law enforcement and military who can perhaps be more authoritative and categorical.

Good luck with your search.

BW1911 · Post by **BW1911** » Sun, 01 Apr 2012 17:42:57

Not trying to influence the decision, but you might consider also the season's effects on the clothing your assailant might likely be wearing. In the winter, you can conceal a larger gun and you need it because the bad guy is wearing layers of clothing, a sweater or sweatshirt, and maybe a coat or leather jacket. In the summer, the extra layers get shed, the jackets come off and you cannot conceal as much, and BUT your hypothetical assailant is now likely wearing a lot fewer layers of clothing, too and that .380 might work okay enough.

You will NOT happy with a small pocket pistol and the tiny sights and small sight radius if the day the SHTF it turns out to be an active shooter at 50 yds, but that .380 might be fine for a close-up and intimate encounter. If you want to continue to look for smallish all metal .380's, I would recommend the Bersa 380 Thunder (a Walther PP clone) as a nice compromise, and with fairly good sights. The Thunder Plus is a hair or two wider but holds 15 rounds, instead of 8.

I carry a full size 1911 when I can, and I downsize to a 15 rd Bersa Thunder Plus when I can't... Also, I really love the all-steel CZ-75 that OleMan suggested, too, although I like the full size CZ-75B, and haven't tried the compact version.

Atamisk · Post by **Atamisk** » Sun, 01 Apr 2012 18:56:52

BW1911: You hit the nail on the head. I want this gun to carry in the summer, when carrying my Big ol' 1911 is a bit impractical.

What i actually liked about the CZ i held was that it had tritium sights. However, they were, as you say, tiny.

I'm a fairly large framed guy, and i usually wear jeans apropro shorts, so a compact might be closer to what i need. I think beretta makes a nice all-metal (alloy lower) compact i liked (Cheetah, i think?), so i'll look there too.

Does anybody up here conceal a compact 1911, and is it dramatically easier to hide than the 5-incher? Because i'll be honest, i like the feeling that comes from carrying 380-420 ft*lbs around.

BW1911 · Post by **BW1911** » Sun, 01 Apr 2012 19:18:16

Atamisk wrote:Does anybody up here conceal a compact 1911, and is it dramatically easier to hide than the 5-incher?

Perhaps many folks (but knowing this crowd, not all

) will agree that it is not the barrel that is hard to conceal, it is the grip that bumps chair backs and prints through light-weight clothing. FOR ME, if you're going to carry a 1911, a full size Government Model or Commander is the right choice over a compact 1911, because the grips are not much larger than a compact 1911, the barrel length is generally not an issue with an IWB holster, sight radius and muzzle velocities are a bit better, and the compacts with different designs from the original 1911 (e.g. the integral feed ramp, double sprung guide-rods, etc) just seem a little more finicky and therefore <potentially> less reliable (to me, at least). I have a couple of compacts and they work okay at the range with ball ammo, but they have been slightly less reliable than my larger 1911's. Of course, they ARE a bit lighter, too. The other thing that people get to experimenting with when using a compact is that the muzzle velocity drops off with the shorter barrels, so they go to hotter, lighter rounds (like 165 and 185 grain bullets) and that changes the shooting character of the guns, too.

Go to a range and shoot whatever you think you might want to buy, whether you have a buddy with one or even if you have to rent one for an hour. Like OleMan said, you might also be happy with one of the 9mm compacts, too.

Kreutz · Post by **Kreutz** » Sun, 01 Apr 2012 20:45:24

Does it have to be semi-auto? Some nice snubby j-frame revolvers which are all metal out there in rounds much better than .380

You have alot more options than you're limiting yourself to.

Atamisk · Post by **Atamisk** » Sun, 01 Apr 2012 22:11:32

To be honest, i hadn't even considered a revolver. I got nothing against a revolver, barring capacity, but most compact semi-autos only hold 6 or 7 rds. anyhow....

I'll shop around the next time i'm at a dealer or show, which will be very shortly.

Thanks!

FiremanBob · Post by **FiremanBob** » Mon, 02 Apr 2012 20:52:53

You just missed my Colt Government .380 - it was sold a few weeks ago.

I think that Detonics made a very compact .45, and there is the Officer's model. But the ballistic effectiveness of any load is compromised with a very short barrel.

Chasbo00 · Post by **Chasbo00** » Mon, 02 Apr 2012 21:20:59

Option C in 9mm? http://www.americanrifleman.org/article ... lo-review/

Djskrilla · Post by **Djskrilla** » Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:25:04

Ever check out the Bersa Thunder 380?

My brother carries one. It's comfortable and shoots very well..in the $250-350 range.

cleveoh · Post by **cleveoh** » Sat, 28 Apr 2012 12:32:17

I know I'm coming in late on this thread. Don't know if you have seen the Sig P938. I am a little skeptical with the issues Sig had early with thE P238. Since this sub compact 9 is built on the premise of the 238
I would like to see some feed back before buying. Also the Walther pps seems like a great option as well as the Sig P290.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

RugerJoe · Post by **RugerJoe** » Wed, 09 May 2012 12:41:53

If you have to have more than a .380 and you don't like the Poly stuff, I'd second the suggestion of a S&W or Charter snubby. I know S&W has a great rep but I haven't put the research in yet on Charter. I was really considering picking up a Charter 44 special the other day though.

ratherfish · Post by **ratherfish** » Wed, 09 May 2012 13:00:27

The Charter Arms bulldog pug 44 is a great choice. I carry one quite often but couldn't hit doodly till I installed crimson trace grips.

Try the Tarus 145 millineum pro. Feels more substantial than most polymers and shoots the 45. Shoots well and has a great capacity. To my thinking it's one of the best packers for the price.

Reverenddel · Post by **Reverenddel** » Wed, 09 May 2012 13:04:02

My question: would an avid .45 shooter be comfortable and happy with a .380 carry pistol?

YEP! I carry a Colt Mustang. I

CDRGlock · Post by **CDRGlock** » Sun, 10 Jun 2012 18:35:28

Funny you ask the question. Even with a smallish caliber, the proper ammo will work. Buffalo Bore +P 90 grains at 1124 FPS.

I have a P238, and now, a P938 by Sig Sauer.

Dooga · Post by **Dooga** » Sun, 10 Jun 2012 21:48:08

My new fave pistol is the Ruger LCP in .380, though it's not all-steel.

Diomed · Post by **Diomed** » Mon, 11 Jun 2012 00:40:00

CDRGlock wrote:Funny you ask the question. Even with a smallish caliber, the proper ammo will work. Buffalo Bore +P 90 grains at 1124 FPS.

Depends on the gun/ammo combo. The BuffBore chokes my LCP. Runs ball fine. (This is very frustrating since BuffBore is my default carry ammo for any caliber.)

So, always run a box or two of your carry ammo through a given gun to make sure it'll work.

Dooga · Post by **Dooga** » Wed, 13 Jun 2012 00:16:48

The LCP's manual says "just don't do +P ammo" which I am told is pretty sound advice.

ShortMan · Post by **ShortMan** » Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:49:57

A real suggestion which the OP actually wants:

AMT Backup. Or Back Up.

Also I like my P238, but its not all steel. Colt Mustang sounds good but I've never shot one.
Kimber also now makes a very small .380. Never shot that either, so I shouldn't recommend. You may wish to research on your own.

Many of those are 1911's or practically 1911's, so you wont feel out of place carrying it. Though I should note the P238 doesn't have a bushing or plunger, nor does it need a takedown tool.

As for the 9mm vs. 380 debate: The OP wasnt looking for that. And since we already have a thousand other threads on the subject, maybe it would be better to just go let him read those threads, instead of going back over it again here.

One more piece of advice for the OP: IF you end up deciding on a 9mm, there is also the P938 which is pretty much the exact same gun.

gunderwood · Post by **gunderwood** » Mon, 21 Jan 2013 07:54:53

Diomed wrote:So, always run a box or two of your carry ammo through a given gun to make sure it'll work.

+1

As for the OP, 380 is the smallest I would recommend for a SD gun. Personally, if I were going to carry something the size of a CZ-83, I would use 9mm instead because it's basically twice 380. I do use a Ruger LCP in 380 though, but it's pocket sized rather than small sub-compact sized. I typically only use pistols this small when concealing my larger, nominal carry gun isn't possible. In that case, something is better than nothing.

Generally, I advise against the really small .45s because the muzzle velocity is too low IMHO. There is still plenty of energy, but handgun HPs are designed to open only within a velocity window of about 200fps (typically max); it's a materials limitation. Shoot a HP too fast and it fragments and doesn't penetrate. Shoot it too slow and it might as well be FMJ. Most .45 bullet are designed for longer barrels and anything sub-4" is considered short for .45. The tests I've looked at for really small .45s show limited expansion and appear to be on the edge of the velocity window. What ever floats your boat though.

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