Occupy Wall Street kitchen staff protesting fixing food

[srwg9mm]

Huh, I was surprised to learn that food was being provided for the protesters. I just assumed you would have to bring your own supplies in order to do something like this. I suppose it was folly to assume that the people who are attending this would provide for themselves, if they had that sort of attitude they probably wouldn't be there!

[Kreutz]

Interesting read Gunderwood (didn't even skim it this time).

Now let me pose another question to you; what happened?

What impetus was there for encroaching government control on private transactions? I'm not talking about the obvious six year olds working mine shafts contributing to labor laws (since, after all wage employment is a private transaction), but the myriad other little governmental intrusions. Most of these intrusions are actually on the state level incidentally.

I cannot put lead based paint in my own home, I cannot sell my organs, and I must wear a seatbelt, etc.

Now, I actually do think any of these three things are my own business, but how in a representative democracy did it come to pass I must obey these rules? Other than selling my own organs another party isn't even involved in the other two!

[gunderwood]

Interesting read Gunderwood (didn't even skim it this time).

Now let me pose another question to you; what happened?

What impetus was there for encroaching government control on private transactions? I'm not talking about the obvious six year olds working mine shafts contributing to labor laws (since, after all wage employment is a private transaction), but the myriad other little governmental intrusions. Most of these intrusions are actually on the state level incidentally.

I cannot put lead based paint in my own home, I cannot sell my organs, and I must wear a seatbelt, etc.

Now, I actually do think any of these three things are my own business, but how in a representative democracy did it come to pass I must obey these rules? Other than selling my own organs another party isn't even involved in the other two!

AFAIK, no modern economy has ever competely implemented capitalism, even the USA. We probably came the closest at times, but it's always been a battle. Remember that the Federal Reserve is the third such attempt at a national bank. There are plenty of forces and interests, even at the beginning of the nation, that wanted to set merchantilism and even a monarchy in the US. Remember Alexander Hamilton's rant at the Continental Congress? He wasn't alone in that sentiment...it's not American ideology per se, but it certainly was British. As you like to correctly point out, the Declaration crowd is a different crowd than the Constitutional crowd. Not entirely, but most of the classical liberals of the day stayed home. There were lots of different interests at the time (as there always are) and there were plenty of those who wanted a British system they controlled. That's both at the State and Federal levels.

It always has and likely always will be a battle of competing ideas. The pro-Revolutionary Americans were heavily biased towards the classical liberal ideals, but there were still plenty of powerful pro-British citizens and interests who wanted otherwise. The impetus is always the same, power seeks out more power. It is exceedingly rare to trend towards less state power; in language (e.g. Tea Party, etc), but rarely in actuality.

In some ways we do the cause of liberty great harm in the way we describe it. We talk about going back to the Constitution, etc., but rarely admit things weren't perfect even then. You like to make that criticism, and those of us who are honest admit it to be true. Things on earth likely will never be perfect. However, in terms of state power over the individual citizen, we've fallen a long way. We ended up here because the previous generations, even back to the founders, didn't keep fighting for the principles of liberty and freedom. In a lot of ways the fear of the unknown kept them from doing so; that fear makes the yoke of slavery look easier and enticing. Generally getting back to the implementation of those ideals at that time is only the first step for liberty. If we stop there, we will have left much liberty on the table. Even then it will require eternal vigilance as there are always forces and interests who seek power, to control other human beings. The very nature of man practically ensures it.

In a sense, nothing out of the ordinary happened. Liberty and economic freedom made us rich to the extent that even our poor live better than kings of centuries past. That made us lazy and we let our guard down against those seeking power. There will always be men who seek power over others. The devil may be in the details, but the general cycle is true for most great civilizations.

[vooduchkn]

Mass civil disturbance? Everything's already falling in place for it. It'll happen soon enough.

That's why investing in gold may be a good idea, but one should really diversify one's precious metals portfolio to include a significant percentage of lead. (Disclaimer: I am not a financial advisor!)