carrying at work (a no carry establishment)

[abraxas]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not asking for any legal advice here--I'm just looking for people's opinions. That said...

I work for a company that specifically states in its associate handbook that the carrying of firearms onto company property is not allowed and is a terminable offense. It goes without saying, then, that if I consider carrying to work, I would be willingly putting myself in a position where, if caught, I could--and most likely would--be fired on the spot.

My first question, then: do people think it's a risk worth taking anyway?

I'm thinking about it like this--I have a CHP and consider myself a responsible and well-intentioned citizen. I also hope to god that I never have to use a firearm for self defense. However, I spend the majority of my waking hours at my job, and despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of my coworkers pose absolutely no harm whatsoever, there is always the "what if" factor. Furthermore, this is where I spend nearly 5/7ths of my waking life--does it not seem logical from a statistical standpoint that if I'm going to carry for self protection that I would carry in the environment in which I spend the majority of my time?

Now, a qualifier or two: if I do choose to carry to work, I would never do so on my immediate person--while potentially the safest option from a self defense standpoint, it's by far the riskiest in terms of accidentally getting caught. If I did, I would likely get something like a GunVault MicroVault and keep it in the backpack I tote my laptop in to and from the office everyday. That way, I lessen the risk of anyone finding it, as no one else should ever have reason to rummage through my backpack, and while not on my actual person, it would be about as readily available to me as it could be given the circumstances. Also, should I choose to go this route, I would also (and obviously) keep this fact a secret from *everyone* else, up to including my family. Basically, no one else would stand to benefit from knowing this, and I would stand to lose a lot if that knowledge ever became public.

I'm sure this is a topic that many others have thought about--I can't imagine my situation is unique--and perhaps even discussed here (I did search before posting, but didn't find what I was looking for). In any case, I welcome all responses, arguments, and viewpoints. Thanks in advance for your thoughts on the matter.

[ProShooter]

I think that a daily planner/calender would fit nicely in your bag....



Of course, not that Im advocating breaking your company policy and risking termination.

[Mindflayer]

I would suggest, in theory, that a J Frame revolver in a pocket holster may help with your issue. I understand where you are coming from - say, again hypothetically, you had an ex coworker go crazy with a knife. Wouldn't being able to protect yourself be nice?

[Diomed]

I would suggest, in theory, that a J Frame revolver in a pocket holster may help with your issue.

I don't think that's a good choice for deep concealment, pocket holsters can have printing and stability issues and revolvers make it worse with their shape.

There are other options, like SmartCarry and Thunderwear. Not convenient for fast draw, but very unlikely to get you found out.

[jaywade]

this is why I more than 1 size of different handguns... I'd go ankle holster of pocket pistol while at work...but if you are ghoing to carry a gun whike at work I think it should be on you, and fairly easy to get to... small revolver, pocket .380 or 9mm lots of options out there

[FatAndy]

Massad Ayoob mentions a DR that hides a Seecamp in a belly band under his scrubs in this article: http://www.kahr.com/PA-1B/review_ot020310.html

[abraxas]

This is all awesome food for thought--thanks, guys! Looks like I have plenty of options to hypothetically consider.

[SgtBill]

I think you first have to make a decision ,.
If you need the current job that you are in or not. If you have a family that depends on you for their survival it may be a very hard decision to make.
If you decide to carry a weapon against your company's policy's and get terminated I can almost see how you would be blackbaled with this type of violation to carry on behind you.
If you decide that you don't need the job then why not just leave and not take the chance of haveing your name smeared by some corporate slug's. and find a job where you can carry
without any problem's.
Bill

[abraxas]

If you decide to carry a weapon against your company's policy's and get terminated I can almost see how you would be blackbaled with this type of violation to carry on behind you.
Bill

I was talking with a good friend about this issue earlier, and we discussed the very point you brought up above--if it did ever turn out that I was terminated due to policy violation, I seriously wonder what my chances for employment after that would be. Not very good, I'm sure.

And taking that thought a bit further, say I decided to carry and ended up in a situation where I had to defend my life at work with that gun. Even if I survived the event, I imagine I would likely be terminated anyway afterward for having violated policy. So, what good would it really be to survive such an event, only to find myself unemployed--and worse, virtually unemployable--immediately after?

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the risk is ultimately worth it.

[RocKor]

First of all, I really don't think being fired for policy violations will screw you from getting a job. From what I understand former employers can only confirm (to new or prospective employers) that you worked there and for how long. They can't divulge any other details of your employment. So if you got fired, while it is better to be honest, you never HAVE to tell your new job you were fired (BUT if they find out you lied on the application or interview they can and probably will terminate you immediately.)

SECONDLY for me to better help you for a gun and carry method may I ask what environment are you in? Office? Factory? Store? And what kind of uniform or dress code are you required to wear? And more detail on what you bring with you (bags, coats, etc.)

If it was me, I'd either leave it in my car or find a way for deep(ish) concealment on my person. I don't like off-body carry myself.

[Diomed]

From what I understand former employers can only confirm (to new or prospective employers) that you worked there and for how long. They can't divulge any other details of your employment.

Man, I wouldn't make any life-altering decisions based on that assumption. Even if there is some sort of law about it, people gossip, especially if it's something as juicy as "he was fired for bringing a gun to work!"

[abraxas]

First of all, I really don't think being fired for policy violations will screw you from getting a job. From what I understand former employers can only confirm (to new or prospective employers) that you worked there and for how long. They can't divulge any other details of your employment. So if you got fired, while it is better to be honest, you never HAVE to tell your new job you were fired (BUT if they find out you lied on the application or interview they can and probably will terminate you immediately.)

SECONDLY for me to better help you for a gun and carry method may I ask what environment are you in? Office? Factory? Store? And what kind of uniform or dress code are you required to wear? And more detail on what you bring with you (bags, coats, etc.)

If it was me, I'd either leave it in my car or find a way for deep(ish) concealment on my person. I don't like off-body carry myself.

Interesting first point--I'll have to look into that a bit more.

And to your question about my environment: it's a white-collar office building--lots of cubicles, but a fairly relaxed dress code. "Business casual" per the handbook, but plenty of people in t-shirts and jeans, etc. No restrictions on personal items (bags, coats, etc.)

Leaning toward just leaving something in the car, but I'm still considering the matter.

[LFS]

From what I understand former employers can only confirm (to new or prospective employers) that you worked there and for how long. They can't divulge any other details of your employment.

Man, I wouldn't make any life-altering decisions based on that assumption. Even if there is some sort of law about it, people gossip, especially if it's something as juicy as "he was fired for bringing a gun to work!"

Having been on the receiving end of these types of phone calls, I can tell you that if a former employee was good there is nothing to stop the employer from saying so. i have many times given good recommendations for former reports. However, giving negative reviews is generally considered a bad idea as it can open you and your company up to actionable slander law suits. But there is no law that I am aware of preventing it.

So if somebody is doing a reference check and a former employer refuses to divulge any details it is usually a good signal that the employment termination was other than normal.

[newdovo]

What about state law that states this:
The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

I realize that the original post is talking about company policy, but are we also treading on legal ground here? Looks like the employer could make a case about the legality of carrying in the workplace. Even if there's no sign on the door, it sounds like the no carry policy is something that "everyone knows." At my work, we sign something that states that we have read and understand the employee handbook, and a policy like this would be stated there.

Parry

[gregj]

From what I understand former employers can only confirm (to new or prospective employers) that you worked there and for how long. They can't divulge any other details of your employment.

Man, I wouldn't make any life-altering decisions based on that assumption. Even if there is some sort of law about it, people gossip, especially if it's something as juicy as "he was fired for bringing a gun to work!"

Having been on the receiving end of these types of phone calls, I can tell you that if a former employee was good there is nothing to stop the employer from saying so. i have many times given good recommendations for former reports. However, giving negative reviews is generally considered a bad idea as it can open you and your company up to actionable slander law suits. But there is no law that I am aware of preventing it.

So if somebody is doing a reference check and a former employer refuses to divulge any details it is usually a good signal that the employment termination was other than normal.

Having also been on the receiving end of those phone calls, corporate policy has been to give a "neutral" reference only. IOW, yes that person worked here during that period, etc. As already mentioned, anything negative could open the risk of litigation for the company.

[Chasbo00]

The smart question to a former employer is; "would you hire this person again?" I suspect most people answer it truthfully.

[RocKor]

Warning. Long post ahead.

What about state law that states this:
The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.

I realize that the original post is talking about company policy, but are we also treading on legal ground here? Looks like the employer could make a case about the legality of carrying in the workplace. Even if there's no sign on the door, it sounds like the no carry policy is something that "everyone knows." At my work, we sign something that states that we have read and understand the employee handbook, and a policy like this would be stated there.

I think, (And I am not a lawyer), depending on jurisdiction, you could face possible criminal trespassing if the company sought to press charges on the matter, just as if you carried into a posted store or building and refused to leave when asked.

Man, I wouldn't make any life-altering decisions based on that assumption. Even if there is some sort of law about it, people gossip, especially if it's something as juicy as "he was fired for bringing a gun to work!"

The smart question to a former employer is; "would you hire this person again?" I suspect most people answer it truthfully.

As pointed out by others, it's not an assumption. Again, from what I understand, depending on where you are, companies either cannot or do not give negative (or even positive) references on employees for several reasons. Many large companies have that policy to avoid lawsuits or legal problems in the several jurisdictions they operate in. Smaller companies that are more local may or may not, depending on policy and the legal landscape.

That being said, it is rarely a good idea to lie, because people gossip or say things they shouldn't and things go around. Plus if the lie catches up to you, you will face the consequences.

Interesting first point--I'll have to look into that a bit more.

And to your question about my environment: it's a white-collar office building--lots of cubicles, but a fairly relaxed dress code. "Business casual" per the handbook, but plenty of people in t-shirts and jeans, etc. No restrictions on personal items (bags, coats, etc.)

Leaning toward just leaving something in the car, but I'm still considering the matter.

I see the following options for you:
On-body carry of a small subcompact pistol on the ankle or bellyband. Deep concealment, slow access, low firepower. I'm not a fan of either for myself, but you may feel different.

On-body hip or shoulder holster carry of a subcompact or compact handgun. With a tuckable IWB on the waist, or a suit jacket and a shoulder holster would offer more pistol options and better access. You'd be surprised how well they conceal with a good holster, but I wouldn't carry anything too large or heavy or use this carry if I dressed lightly, used light or thin dress shirts that may print or show the gun or holster, or without a jacket for added cover if wearing dress shirts. I would prefer this if I carried on body and coul plan my wardrobe around it.

Off-body carry - get a soft pistol case (pistol rug) and put it in your bag or briefcase. Some with zippers can be locked with small (cheap, universal luggage) padlocks. Something like a dayplanner gun holder or disguised or unlocked compartment is conducive to the gun being discovered by someone snooping around. This method allows you to carry whatever handgun you wish but if the bag isn't with you when something bad happens you're screwed.

Last method is in-car carry. This is probably what I myself would do if faced with an anti-gun employer and couldn't fit a hip holster into my wardrobe. This allows you to carry whatever you want also, but if you can't get to your car during a crisis the gun might as well be at home. But you also can't be accused of bringing a gun to work as Virginia law says you can have a gun in your car with or without a permit as long as it is secured in a compartment. This is the safest route, and honestly IF you can get to your car during a crisis you still can stop a bad situation or flee as needed.

[Yarddawg]

Working for a large defense company, this has never been a concern for me. The company has a no gun policy. That means no guns, period, end of discussion. Since I am married with 2 kids, a mortgage, and too many other bills to pay every month, I respect the policy and have never even considered carrying a gun at work.

To me, if I felt that I would not feel safe at work without my gun, it's time for me to find other employment. It's just not worth it to me to make a "career decision" about carrying at work.