So A long time ago like 10 years ago I was all hey I'm going to build an 8mm Kurtz Ar15, posted on a forum, some "gun expert" told me it was impossible and to forget it, so I did. My knowledge has grown vastly about the AR platform in the last 10 years. However I don’t know everything. SO I am at it again, and I mean to see it threw.
I have basically figured out that everyone has been over thinking it. All I need is to have a bolt made that will accept the 8mm Kurtz, and a barrel made. Dan at McGowen Barrel can make the barrel no issues. What I am looking for is help from anyone who knows a good machinist, who could either modify an AR10 7.62 NATO bolt, or cut a custom AR15 bolt that will hold the 46,ooo KSI the tiny little 8mm gives off. Those two tings with a few other modifications should do it. But I am not giving them up untill its either built or I am broke lol. So I am asking my fellow Virginians out for help.
I am all ears.
8mm Kurtz build
8mm Kurtz build
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast
Re: 8mm Kurtz build
First off I found this coming out this year, preorders now.
https://www.hmgunworks.com/product/hmg- ... ength-223/
Ok so after a long thought about this whole thing I have come to the conclusion it is possible, very very possible. So I am going to dump all the info on this build right here for anyone who would like to build what I call the AR-44 chambering in the 7.92x33mm 8mm Kurtz.
The best way to go about this build as is follows:
-AR15 upper, what I found out is the CMMG ANVIL would be best
-They have a new .458 bolt design for the AR-15 which is .473 the 8mm is .470
-McGowen Barrels can cut the 8mm barrel w/ barrel extension for like 300 he told me
-Use an ASC 7.62x39 Mag, may have to mod the mag, but it should work. May need a new follower plate
- 7.62x39 Enhanced Firing Pin
- Mid Length Gas Tube
- Either a sock A2 Buffer or a Spike Tactical STT2 Buffer
- MILSPEC or 4lbs. Trigger group
Here is all of my correspondence between CMMG, their techs and myself.
Good morning,
My name is Brian Frank and I am trying to build an AR15 in
7.92x33, it has never been done, but I mean to change that. I am looking
for some information on this new SOCOM bolt you have built. By the way,
HUGE fan of the Mutant, I rocked one of those at the range a few months
ago, seriously Best AR platform x39 weapon I have shot to date. I mean
the AR47 I built is great all around, but that thing, that Mutant, it's
well perfect really.
However I digress, I understand that the SOCOM will accept a
.470 rimmed cartridge? If so then I think I have some questions about
this 8mm Kurtz Ar15 build I am having a go with. I have everything else
figured out, mag conversion (AR15 x39 20 round), a barrel that is ready
to be cut, and even a firing pin I think will work (7.62x39 enhanced).
This has never been done, due to no one being able to get a bolt to work
for the AR15. I was wondering based on the tech drawing I have provided
a link to, do you or someone at CMMG think that this would, not could
but would work? And will your SOCOM bolt handle the roughly 47,ooo
chamber PSI the 8mm Kurtz gives off when fired?
Ammo specs:
Wiki for the case drawing dimensions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92%C3%9733mm_Kurz
If there is a chance this will end up being what I need please
let me know, and how much one of these bolts (and a firing pin if you
think I need) one would cost me, as I would be more than interested in
making this happen. Any input or information yall could provide me with
in this endeavor would be greatly appreciated.
Loyal fan/ soon to be owner of a Mutant,
HT1 Brian Frank
US Navy
USS Mesa Verde LPD-19
LPO ER09
X 3730
Brian,
The response below was sent to me by my engineers. The parts needed to
do this build will be offered eventually but with the platform this new
it will take some time to get the ball rolling with the parts side of
things. Hope this helps please let me know if you have any other
questions and I will be happy to assist you.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Fwd: "Impossible" AR Build
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 10:44:53 -0500
From: Jordan Wilson
To: JustinH
CC: Tyson Bradshaw
, Von Davis
Justin,
It would likely take a little bit of work but it should work fine. Since
the ANVIL is a midsized platform we can't just sell him a bolt. He would
need to build up an entire rifle (Upper, Lower, Barrel Extension, Bolt,
Carrier, etc.).
The intent of the ANVIL is for projects exactly like this. We eventually
want to sell "build kits" that would come with everything needed to make
an AR platform chambered however the customer sees fit. They would just
need to get a barrel made and modify the bolt face to accommodate their
cartridge of choice, whether custom, wildcat or otherwise.
To answer a few of his questions, yes our bolt can handle 47,000psi
loads with that bolt face. The ANVIL bolt and barrel extension are
nearly identical to our 308 which is a .473 rim diameter that runs at
62,000psi. We deliberatly designed the ANVIL to be as robust as possible
to handle almost anything the wildcat community can dream up. The .458
SOCOM just happened to be the best starting point.
I hope this helps,
Jordan
Justin,
So if I were to buy the entire rifle, which I guess would be faster
than parting another AR together myself, would I just need a barrel and
mag mod or what else would be needed? And what is the barrel extension;
I may know it by another name. I am going to have to ship the gun to my
barrel guy any ways for him to head space it so I am sure he will work
the kinks out for mag to breach feeding.
Like I said I mean to see this threw. And so be it if the first one
turns out to be basically a CMMG mod, I'd be game for that, plus its
basically free PR for you guys. Please get back to me as I mean this to
be done hopefully by years end.
Best regards,
HT1 Brian Frank
US Navy
USS Mesa Verde LPD-19
LPO ER09
X3730
P.S. thanks for that speedy reply, loving the company more and more
Brian,
The barrel mod, Mag mod, and bolt mod would be what is needed on that. The extension is the thread end of barrel that the "bolt" locks into on the receiver side. It is also know as the "star chamber". The orange box is highlighting the barrel extension. I will tell you that the Anvil and Mutant platforms are going to be gateway platforms to open up to different calibers, though I am not real sure what route the engineers are taking but have not heard of the one you speak of.
Thank you,
Justin H.
Technical Support Manager
Justin,
Ok, so you clearly have my interest peaked here. I do know the Star Chamber as we call it that in the military, so I am tracking on that. Now how would I have to mod the bolt? The 7.92 is a .470 rim and I believe they said the ANVIL is a .473 bolt face; would this not work in the current configuration? Would I have to size the bolt face down to a .471? All I am seeing is a M4 feed ramp mod, barrel change out and mag mod to make this thing at least chamber.
The 8mm Kurtz(short), 7.92x33, was the first intermediate cartridge ever made, by the Germans in WWii for the Sturmgewehr(Storm Rifle)/ MP44/ STG44. It is the grand father of all modern combat rifles and its direct descendants are the AR15 and the AK47. More so the AK, however Kalashnikov would tell you that he didn't copy the MP44, but really I mean the internals are very, very similar. SO basically they took and 8mm Mauser casing cut it half, necked it and presto birth of the assault riffle or storm rifle as Hitler called it.
If there is anything more the engineers could provide me with, I am very much so interested in getting an ANVIL platform, and working with it. I would have no problems basically doing some RnD on this. End of the day I would just like to revive this lost round...... IN A BAD ASS GUN, LOL
Respectfully,
HT1 Brian Frank
US Navy
USS Mesa Verde LPD-19
LPO ER09
x3730
I hope this helps anyone who has an interest in this out. Due to unforeseen Navy scheduling events, lets just say my time is running out to work on a new build for a good bit. I will stay here on this forum as it a great forum.
Cheers,
Brian
__________________
slow is smooth, smooth is fast
Edit | Delete 0
https://www.hmgunworks.com/product/hmg- ... ength-223/
Ok so after a long thought about this whole thing I have come to the conclusion it is possible, very very possible. So I am going to dump all the info on this build right here for anyone who would like to build what I call the AR-44 chambering in the 7.92x33mm 8mm Kurtz.
The best way to go about this build as is follows:
-AR15 upper, what I found out is the CMMG ANVIL would be best
-They have a new .458 bolt design for the AR-15 which is .473 the 8mm is .470
-McGowen Barrels can cut the 8mm barrel w/ barrel extension for like 300 he told me
-Use an ASC 7.62x39 Mag, may have to mod the mag, but it should work. May need a new follower plate
- 7.62x39 Enhanced Firing Pin
- Mid Length Gas Tube
- Either a sock A2 Buffer or a Spike Tactical STT2 Buffer
- MILSPEC or 4lbs. Trigger group
Here is all of my correspondence between CMMG, their techs and myself.
Good morning,
My name is Brian Frank and I am trying to build an AR15 in
7.92x33, it has never been done, but I mean to change that. I am looking
for some information on this new SOCOM bolt you have built. By the way,
HUGE fan of the Mutant, I rocked one of those at the range a few months
ago, seriously Best AR platform x39 weapon I have shot to date. I mean
the AR47 I built is great all around, but that thing, that Mutant, it's
well perfect really.
However I digress, I understand that the SOCOM will accept a
.470 rimmed cartridge? If so then I think I have some questions about
this 8mm Kurtz Ar15 build I am having a go with. I have everything else
figured out, mag conversion (AR15 x39 20 round), a barrel that is ready
to be cut, and even a firing pin I think will work (7.62x39 enhanced).
This has never been done, due to no one being able to get a bolt to work
for the AR15. I was wondering based on the tech drawing I have provided
a link to, do you or someone at CMMG think that this would, not could
but would work? And will your SOCOM bolt handle the roughly 47,ooo
chamber PSI the 8mm Kurtz gives off when fired?
Ammo specs:
Wiki for the case drawing dimensions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92%C3%9733mm_Kurz
If there is a chance this will end up being what I need please
let me know, and how much one of these bolts (and a firing pin if you
think I need) one would cost me, as I would be more than interested in
making this happen. Any input or information yall could provide me with
in this endeavor would be greatly appreciated.
Loyal fan/ soon to be owner of a Mutant,
HT1 Brian Frank
US Navy
USS Mesa Verde LPD-19
LPO ER09
X 3730
Brian,
The response below was sent to me by my engineers. The parts needed to
do this build will be offered eventually but with the platform this new
it will take some time to get the ball rolling with the parts side of
things. Hope this helps please let me know if you have any other
questions and I will be happy to assist you.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Fwd: "Impossible" AR Build
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 10:44:53 -0500
From: Jordan Wilson
To: JustinH
CC: Tyson Bradshaw
, Von Davis
Justin,
It would likely take a little bit of work but it should work fine. Since
the ANVIL is a midsized platform we can't just sell him a bolt. He would
need to build up an entire rifle (Upper, Lower, Barrel Extension, Bolt,
Carrier, etc.).
The intent of the ANVIL is for projects exactly like this. We eventually
want to sell "build kits" that would come with everything needed to make
an AR platform chambered however the customer sees fit. They would just
need to get a barrel made and modify the bolt face to accommodate their
cartridge of choice, whether custom, wildcat or otherwise.
To answer a few of his questions, yes our bolt can handle 47,000psi
loads with that bolt face. The ANVIL bolt and barrel extension are
nearly identical to our 308 which is a .473 rim diameter that runs at
62,000psi. We deliberatly designed the ANVIL to be as robust as possible
to handle almost anything the wildcat community can dream up. The .458
SOCOM just happened to be the best starting point.
I hope this helps,
Jordan
Justin,
So if I were to buy the entire rifle, which I guess would be faster
than parting another AR together myself, would I just need a barrel and
mag mod or what else would be needed? And what is the barrel extension;
I may know it by another name. I am going to have to ship the gun to my
barrel guy any ways for him to head space it so I am sure he will work
the kinks out for mag to breach feeding.
Like I said I mean to see this threw. And so be it if the first one
turns out to be basically a CMMG mod, I'd be game for that, plus its
basically free PR for you guys. Please get back to me as I mean this to
be done hopefully by years end.
Best regards,
HT1 Brian Frank
US Navy
USS Mesa Verde LPD-19
LPO ER09
X3730
P.S. thanks for that speedy reply, loving the company more and more
Brian,
The barrel mod, Mag mod, and bolt mod would be what is needed on that. The extension is the thread end of barrel that the "bolt" locks into on the receiver side. It is also know as the "star chamber". The orange box is highlighting the barrel extension. I will tell you that the Anvil and Mutant platforms are going to be gateway platforms to open up to different calibers, though I am not real sure what route the engineers are taking but have not heard of the one you speak of.
Thank you,
Justin H.
Technical Support Manager
Justin,
Ok, so you clearly have my interest peaked here. I do know the Star Chamber as we call it that in the military, so I am tracking on that. Now how would I have to mod the bolt? The 7.92 is a .470 rim and I believe they said the ANVIL is a .473 bolt face; would this not work in the current configuration? Would I have to size the bolt face down to a .471? All I am seeing is a M4 feed ramp mod, barrel change out and mag mod to make this thing at least chamber.
The 8mm Kurtz(short), 7.92x33, was the first intermediate cartridge ever made, by the Germans in WWii for the Sturmgewehr(Storm Rifle)/ MP44/ STG44. It is the grand father of all modern combat rifles and its direct descendants are the AR15 and the AK47. More so the AK, however Kalashnikov would tell you that he didn't copy the MP44, but really I mean the internals are very, very similar. SO basically they took and 8mm Mauser casing cut it half, necked it and presto birth of the assault riffle or storm rifle as Hitler called it.
If there is anything more the engineers could provide me with, I am very much so interested in getting an ANVIL platform, and working with it. I would have no problems basically doing some RnD on this. End of the day I would just like to revive this lost round...... IN A BAD ASS GUN, LOL
Respectfully,
HT1 Brian Frank
US Navy
USS Mesa Verde LPD-19
LPO ER09
x3730
I hope this helps anyone who has an interest in this out. Due to unforeseen Navy scheduling events, lets just say my time is running out to work on a new build for a good bit. I will stay here on this forum as it a great forum.
Cheers,
Brian
__________________
slow is smooth, smooth is fast
Edit | Delete 0
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast
Re: 8mm Kurtz build
So, How goes the Build?
8mm Kurtz is an Odd one, with the STG44 being the one gun that comes to mind that fired it.
A Couple of thoughts: Why not just go 7.62x39mm? -- It's easily available both in the AR 'Platform' and from an Ammo standpoint, it's also slightly more powerful than the 8mm, All the teething pains have been pretty much ironed out.
I guess this is more of a "Personal" challenge or you are sitting on a huge stockpile of 7.92x33mm that's makes it cost effective, But for me, If I was really into 8mm kurtz, I'd try to find a Semi-Auto STG44 Repro since that is definitely a Cool Rifle, I hear from time to time somebody is making them, But never looked into that hard, I have one of the .22 caliber ones that were around a while ago, and even that is cool.
All in All though, It sounds like an interesting project, Update us how it turns out.
TJ
8mm Kurtz is an Odd one, with the STG44 being the one gun that comes to mind that fired it.
A Couple of thoughts: Why not just go 7.62x39mm? -- It's easily available both in the AR 'Platform' and from an Ammo standpoint, it's also slightly more powerful than the 8mm, All the teething pains have been pretty much ironed out.
I guess this is more of a "Personal" challenge or you are sitting on a huge stockpile of 7.92x33mm that's makes it cost effective, But for me, If I was really into 8mm kurtz, I'd try to find a Semi-Auto STG44 Repro since that is definitely a Cool Rifle, I hear from time to time somebody is making them, But never looked into that hard, I have one of the .22 caliber ones that were around a while ago, and even that is cool.
All in All though, It sounds like an interesting project, Update us how it turns out.
TJ