OC question

[ffemt358]

Just moved to Churchville last week from Southern Maryland (finally), and we absolutely love it here. The area is beautiful, the people are very nice and the kids love their new school. I had a Maryland CHP a few years ago when I worked as a security guard, however it specifically stated that it was only valid while on duty, that being said obviously with the exception of my own property ive never been able to oc or cc before. I have done a lot of reading before and since we moved about VA gun laws and have a pretty good understanding now. I do still have one question, I am planning on going to the courthouse Monday to get a chp application however until that is issued I plan to oc whenever possible. I understand the dos and donts of oc with one exception, I know that I can have my gun in my vehicle loaded as long as it is secured in a compartment or container which I would assume the center console or glove box would be acceptable (please correct me if I am wrong). My question is if I am ocing, do I have to put my gun the said container in compartment once I get in my vehicle to go to say wally world, or can I keep it holstered on my side while driving. Obviously this wont be an issue once I have chp but for now I am being very careful and doing my homework since I am from a state that does not allow one to exercise their 2nd right. Also was wondering how oc friendly the Staunton area is since that's where we do most of our shopping.

[dusterdude]

Unless something has changed and i havent heard,you can carry in your car in broad ass daylight and since you dont have your ccl yet it needs to be in the open anyway,welcome to va

[Stratojaxter]

How is a seat belt blocking it is different from sitting against the wall in a booth at McDonald's? An object may be blocking it's view, but the weapon is still openly carried on your person.

[Jakeiscrazy]

Stratojax is correct, the general understanding is that as long as it's "commonly observable" your good to go. As a precaution I would notify an officer that "Hey I am open carrying a firearm on my right side. How would you like me to proceed?" That pretty much takes away an argument that you were trying to conceal it.

As always this is not legal advice I am not a lawyer, ect ect ect.

[ffemt358]

Stratojax is correct, the general understanding is that as long as it's "commonly observable" your good to go. As a precaution I would notify an officer that "Hey I am open carrying a firearm on my right side. How would you like me to proceed?" That pretty much takes away an argument that you were trying to conceal it.

As always this is not legal advice I am not a lawyer, ect ect ect.

Im actually a lefty, that's what made me think to ask. being on my left side it would be hard to see until the door opens, however I would advise the LEO that I was ocing either way. leave it to the southpaw to be complicated anyone think being on the left side would make any difference ? I actually didn't think it would be legal to oc like that in a vehicle at all so im glad to hear that others are legally doing it.

[Jakeiscrazy]

Stratojax is correct, the general understanding is that as long as it's "commonly observable" your good to go. As a precaution I would notify an officer that "Hey I am open carrying a firearm on my right side. How would you like me to proceed?" That pretty much takes away an argument that you were trying to conceal it.

As always this is not legal advice I am not a lawyer, ect ect ect.

Im actually a lefty, that's what made me think to ask. being on my left side it would be hard to see until the door opens, however I would advise the LEO that I was ocing either way. leave it to the southpaw to be complicated anyone think being on the left side would make any difference ? I actually didn't think it would be legal to oc like that in a vehicle at all so im glad to hear that others are legally doing it.

Well I guess the only solution is learn to shoot left handed! Just kidding! You should be fine lol.

[MarcSpaz]

You should re-read the code of VA to try to fully grasp it. I do re-read it regularly myself to ensure I actually understood it last time, to check for changes and updates and to help remind myself of the do's and don'ts.

You can not have the weapon on your person while driving if you do not have a CHP. It must be stowed. If the weapon is between your body and the door or center console, then it is considered partially or completely concealed from view with regard to the view of others outside the vehicle, thus in violation of the law.

The best rule of thumb I ave heard from many LEO's is to have the weapon clearly visible from 3 sides of your body... meaning front, back, and side or both sides and the front or back.

The best link to find out about the results of monthly legislative sessions is here...

http://leg1.state.va.us/

If you want to search the code (statutory law) yourself (any section), use this link.

http://leg1.state.va.us/000/src.htm

[ProShooter]

You can not have the weapon on your person while driving if you do not have a CHP.It must be stowed.

WRONG

[GeneFrenkle]

Proshooter, can you elaborate a little bit more, please?

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[MarcSpaz]

Maybe I am missing something?

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... d+18.2-308

18.2-308 clearly states that carrying a concealed weapon is a Class 1 misdemeanor at a minimum. Every exception/defense I read about transporting states that while in the vehicle it is legal to be concealed "...provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported..."

Except C - #10

10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel; and

11. Any enrolled participant of a firearms training course who is at, or going to or from, a training location, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported.

[Chasbo00]

The issue here is what is the legal definition of a concealed handgun. As far as I know, VA statute law does not define this in any detail. Hence, one is left with either case law or a reasonable person's interpretation of what a concealed handgun is, or perhaps both. I don't know what the case law says, but my thinking is that if you are openly carrying a handgun in a holster while standing outside your car, it does not somehow become a concealed handgun just because you sat down in your car.

Perhaps Jim (Proshooter) will give us his supporting case law or rationale.

[MarcSpaz]

If Jim has something new for me to learn, I will be the first to humbly acknowledge I was wrong and apologize, but you covered my point to a tee. The code says "If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation".

Outside your vehicle it can be commonly observed. When you are sitting in a car/truck, etc. and the weapon is only barely visible from a few obscure angles because it is hidden between your body and the door or center console, then it is either partially or completely concealed, not commonly observable.

Honestly, I haven't met Jim, but he is very highly regarded in the community. I would not even try to take that away from him. However, If I didn't have a CHP, it appears pretty clear to me that the gun needs to be secured in the vehicle or unloaded and securely wrapped, which is exactly what I would do.

On second thought... screw it.. OP, spend $50 and get your CHP. Then it doesn't matter anyway. LOL. That's why I did. There are pages and pages of gun laws that don't apply to valid CHP holders.

[GeneFrenkle]

So leaning with my carry side against a wall why I'm OCing would make it concealed? It would even be worse if I threw a jacket over my shoulder like they do in GQ and it happened to be on the shoulder 8'm leaning on, too.

Btw yea, a CHP is pretty cost effective and straightforward to get. Well worth it.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[ProShooter]

What is boils down to, is not what can be observed by others, but rather by the manner in which you are carrying.

The exemptions quoted....


10. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel; and

11. Any enrolled participant of a firearms training course who is at, or going to or from, a training location, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported.

These are exemptions that allow someone to carry a concealed handgun without a CHP. The are not rules that state that these ways are the only ways to carry. They are exemptions, not requirements.

Chasbo00 hit it on the head when he said " my thinking is that if you are openly carrying a handgun in a holster while standing outside your car, it does not somehow become a concealed handgun just because you sat down in your car."

I'm not sure that I can explain it any more clearly than that.

[dusterdude]

Did the carry law about in a vehicle change since 2003?,from what im reading here,you cant have a firearn laying on the passenger seat of your car in plain view?i went thru a check point in new keny in 03 before i had my ccp and had my .45 on the passesnger seat and the cop at the checkpoint asked me to hand him the pistol and unloaded it then returned It to me when he was finished checking me out.now im confused

[MarcSpaz]

hmmm... seems pretty clear on the explanation, though I don't know that I agree with your interpretation.

The codes says that for the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

[ProShooter]

Did the carry law about in a vehicle change since 2003?,from what im reading here,you cant have a firearn laying on the passenger seat of your car in plain view?i went thru a check point in new keny in 03 before i had my ccp and had my .45 on the passesnger seat and the cop at the checkpoint asked me to hand him the pistol and unloaded it then returned It to me when he was finished checking me out.now im confused

Laws have changed a number of times over the years. You can certainly have your gun laying on the seat in plain view.

[ProShooter]

hmmm... seems pretty clear on the explanation, though I don't know that I agree with your interpretation.

The codes says that for the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

That's a different definition, applied to things like sword canes and knives hidden inside of a pen.

For guns, "hidden from common observation is used.

I was in LE for 12 years, and have been teaching it to civilians for 6 years. You don't have to agree, but its correct nonetheless.

[MarcSpaz]

Again, I think you may be mistaken my friend. The very first paragraph specifies the weapons that definition applies to, including handguns. Its all one paragraph.

Here is the whole statement.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of clause (i) regarding a handgun, that a person had been issued, at the time of the offense, a valid concealed handgun permit.

Can you help me understand why you feel a handgun is excluded from the definition of a weapon? It reads to me as they made every possible attempt to include every type of common gun in existence, along with many other commonly know weapons; then said with regard to a handgun a CHP is a valid defense.

I am assuming I am not going to make any headway on this in one direction or another, but I will try again if you are willing. I may have missed something so hopefully we can figure it out. (being sincere.. not sarcastic, I swear) My main concern is that I don't want someone to go to jail because they got bad advice or guidance from me or anyone else on the forum. I mean, we all know this info is "use at your own risk", but still, I feel an obligation to do the right thing.

I am like the doubting Tomas. I need to put my finger in the spear wound (or in this case on a specific piece of code) to be sure its real. I see in the code where it specifically says if you don't have a CHP, the firearm must be either unloaded and wrapped or in a secure compartment or container. However, except for a CHP, I see no exclusions or exceptions that apply to civilians that clearly state I don't have to abide by those two methods. What section of the code lists or implies other exceptions that make it so some can keep their handgun on there person while in their vehicle? Is there other exceptions in another section? I know there are lots or references to other parts of the code.

Maybe case law instead of statutory law? I could have missed it there for sure. I don't typically read case law because they tend to set a standard, but judges and juries do tend to be persuaded away from status quo if a better explanation or if a case is more well presented.

[Roverhound]

Welcome to the area! I'm right down the road in Stuarts Draft.
Our AG has determined that secured in a container means glove box, console, etc. It does not need to be unloaded. If you think you may be nabbed for illegal carry (though I agree with pro shooter on this one), unholster and secure it.
By all means get your cwp but don't stop open carrying.
OpenCarry.org is a great resource for information. You can also look up the laws yourself. This is a much better way to get what you need without it being 2nd or 3rd hand information.
One more bit of advice, Never ask a cop for information about law! You will only get what they want you to believe.