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home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 07:16:51
by ilaurain
What would some of you consider the best home protection shotgun load?

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 07:17:43
by ilaurain
ilaurain wrote:What would some of you consider the best home protection shotgun load?

Has anyone in here ever shot a shotgun with a pistol grip on it? How does it handle?

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 10:02:12
by Remek
I like 00 buckshot. Doesnt matter the brand/load, they all work in the house, unless you live in a mansion and might be shooting across a 300 yard indoor field.

For the shotty with a grip, they work great. I have been in the market for one for myself for a specific one in a while. Haven't found the right price yet. Maybe I will never find it.

Best thing to do is to go and see how it works for you at a range, or at least a show/dealer to see if you like the feel.

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 14:53:15
by bryanrheem
what is your home situation? Are you in a single family home/condo/apartment? Distance to the next house around you? Are there kids / other people in the house? What is your physical condition? What is the distance that you might engage a threat... bedroom distance or a long hallway?

There are a lot of those factors to consider because over penetration with ammo is real.

The most popular choice is 00 buck but some use #4 as well. #4 is harder to find though.

I don't think it matters whether there is a pistol grip or not. I have shotguns with both and shoot both fine especially in a HD situation where you are probably not aiming down sights but using your point of aim. I shoot clay so a traditional stock is more natural to bring up to my shoulder, point and shoot. Sometimes, the pistol grip will be harder to control as your hand is lower than the bore axis of the barrel.

In the end, Remek said is best... get to the range and try them out.

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 16:43:41
by BertMacklin
ilaurain wrote:
ilaurain wrote:What would some of you consider the best home protection shotgun load?

Has anyone in here ever shot a shotgun with a pistol grip on it? How does it handle?


If you are asking about home-defense it is definitely not a first choice. Whatever mobility is gained without a stock is made up for by not being able any form of sights safely. All of your shooting will thus be reliant on a laser, not likely, or point shooting which isn't ideal with neighbors and/or family nearby to catch loose rounds. Pistol gripped shotguns have their purpose but its not home defense.

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 16:53:07
by BertMacklin
Also you could try birdshot before sending buckshot through the wall.

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 18:55:40
by Palladin
BertMacklin wrote:Also you could try birdshot before sending buckshot through the wall.



???
Better yet popcorn and buttersalt, that way if you don't know what your doing, you can just throw a party... :roll:

:popcorn:

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 19:41:37
by Jakeiscrazy
Palladin wrote:
BertMacklin wrote:Also you could try birdshot before sending buckshot through the wall.



???
Better yet popcorn and buttersalt, that way if you don't know what your doing, you can just throw a party... :roll:

:popcorn:


+1
Don't progressively load your shotgun and here is why.

Reason 1: Your first shot may need to be need to be your most effective shot. The bad guy has a gun and is shooting at you. Do you want your first shot to be the most effective shot or do you want to have to shoot twice?


Reason 2: Birdshot is not a substitute for good shot placement it still goes thru walls and it still is dangerous.

Reason 3: Birdshot sucks. It leave shallow nasty wounds but shallow wounds don't stop people. Your goal,if your firing a gun in defense, should always be to stop the threat, not to kill them, or scarce them, or inflict pain.

Birdshot is for birds!

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 19:57:42
by Remek
^^^i'll second that. Better not to leave a bad guy to lie and get you in jail when he/she broke into your house.

The police seem to be more harsh these days on guys who give warning shots (morons). Best to stop the threat in one shot.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] Image

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 19:59:31
by Remek
For the grip, you might fins a regular stock much more versatile. You can use the regular stock on the hip easily, but not so with a grip.

Just another thought.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ] Image

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 20:04:31
by RO73
I keep buckshot only in my HD shotgun. I want to make sure I stop the threat while minimizing wall penetration.

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 21:35:46
by Chasbo00
I recommend you read this article:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Fri, 08 Nov 2013 02:10:11
by BertMacklin
Jakeiscrazy wrote:
Palladin wrote:
BertMacklin wrote:Also you could try birdshot before sending buckshot through the wall.



???
Better yet popcorn and buttersalt, that way if you don't know what your doing, you can just throw a party... :roll:

:popcorn:


+1
Don't progressively load your shotgun and here is why.

Reason 1: Your first shot may need to be need to be your most effective shot. The bad guy has a gun and is shooting at you. Do you want your first shot to be the most effective shot or do you want to have to shoot twice


Reason 2: Birdshot is not a substitute for good shot placement it still goes thru walls and it still is dangerous.

Reason 3: Birdshot sucks. It leave shallow nasty wounds but shallow wounds don't stop people. Your goal,if your firing a gun in defense, should always be to stop the threat, not to kill them, or scarce them, or inflict pain.

Birdshot is for birds!


It was a mild suggestion I heard from a cop who told me he does because:

1. A full load of birdshot will incapacitate but not kill usually (Good if you have kids in the next room)
2. Make them bleed like a stuck pig which they would use to track(Not a great reason unless your going to play detective)

If it doesn't float your boat then don't use it.

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Fri, 08 Nov 2013 10:31:42
by Palladin
BertMacklin wrote:
If it doesn't float your boat then don't use it.


This part works.


OP, In determining what floats, I highly recommend Andrew Branca's book 'The Law Of Self Defense'. Knowing the laws of your state are very much a part of successfully defending yourself and your family. Staying on the right side of the bars after the fact is important, and wrongheaded ideas and good intentions can put you in jail so fast it'll make your head spin.

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Fri, 08 Nov 2013 16:02:45
by BertMacklin
Palladin wrote:
BertMacklin wrote:
If it doesn't float your boat then don't use it.


This part works.


OP, In determining what floats, I highly recommend Andrew Branca's book 'The Law Of Self Defense'. Knowing the laws of your state are very much a part of successfully defending yourself and your family. Staying on the right side of the bars after the fact is important, and wrongheaded ideas and good intentions can put you in jail so fast it'll make your head spin.


My point was not legal but ethical in the sense that killing a family member or some random sop with errant buckshot completely negates any reason for picking up a gun in the first place. I did not advocate shooting to wound, using it as means for handicapping poor aim, or any reason other than preventing death beyond perceived Point of Aim. I acquired for a time a pistol grip Mossberg from an Uncle who had shot buckshot from the top floor of his home three stories down to the basement and he figured that using it in home defense was as much of a threat to his family as any intruder. If you feel safe with buckshot then by all means go ahead, and yes you are correct that legally this is advisable to anything I have said. But my intention was to let someone else think of the consequences of such a load. The round ball is more indifferent to material than typical HD loads, which people sometimes don't take into account. In conclusion, at least in jail you can still play basketball and this is, in my view, better than having a random kid take an errant ball to the dome piece.

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 00:35:50
by Rumson
My experience has been pistol grip without a stock shooting heavy loads is useless unless you're making a movie.. You have no control over the shotgun with a pistol grip only..

If you go pistol grip get a knox stock type..

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 08:40:32
by duffster
I think that you need to think of your surroundings, do you have children in the house, how close are your neighbors? what is there is a hostage situation and a loved one is held tight with a knife, would you trust your buckshot near a loved one? Can you get to your shotgun in under 30 seconds from a resting position? If you are looking for a HD shotgun I would say it is good; for that that pump sound is the international word for get out. But on the other hand I am a pistol guy for HD (home defense) you can have your pistol in one hand and the phone to call the cops in the other, it is a lot harder to do that with a shotgun, plus you can slice the pie tighter (go around corners) with a pistol. The capacity is usually more in a pistol and you can maneuver a lot better with one.

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 10:02:42
by Remek
The situation is really one that must be adjusted to.
In addition, everyone will adjust differently.
You just have to think through the scenarios, and then practice them. I cannot stress that enough, practice them. This is perhaps the only situation where you can walk around with your pistol/rifle/shotgun
in actual area of possible confrontation, and do dry fire practice. Use that to your advantage!

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 10:47:02
by gunderwood
Please don't use birdshot. It's one of those popular myths that gets passed around like "knockdown" power. There is extensive data out there and the general consensus is that it simply does not work (where work is meeting the FBI spec/standard for tactical loadings). IMHO if you don't think a effective gun with an effective cartridge and loading is worth the risk, you should be looking for another home defense system. Tasers, mace (bear spray should be MUCH more effective), baton, etc. Even those choices have risk associated with their use.

The general LE/Mil answer (they do this for a living as well as in diverse situations) is a 12ga with 2-3/4" shell in either 00 buck or slugs. Slugs pose a not unsubstantial risk to other houses and most LE no longer use them for general use (specialized slugs for stopping vehicles, etc.); with the exception of the low recoil/hollow point slugs like Federal LE127RS. IIRC, ATK owns the vast portion of this market and will give you a good idea what most LEAs are buying today: http://le.atk.com/ammunition/federal/default.aspx

Some of the gel/lab testers have shown that the "ideal" all around load in a 12ga/2-3/4" shell would be #1buck, but even then it's splitting hairs between that and the more common 00buck. The main problem with #1buck is that since it's not popular there are not many of the premium loadings for it. Remember, you're splitting hairs at this point.

My choices are:
LE127RS: http://le.atk.com/ammunition/federal/sl ... spx?id=706
These seriously make a fist sized hole from ~2-3" of penetration to 10"+ and total penetration of ~12" (about perfect for the FBI spec).

LE127 00: http://le.atk.com/ammunition/federal/bu ... spx?id=696
Hardened shot and flight control wadding eliminate most of the disadvantages of using buck shot. Despite popular myth, all of the modern LE loadings want the shot grouped as close together as possible. If it spreads out, buckshot is much less effective.

Edit: For the birdshot lovers, here's a question. Does anyone know of ANY SWAT team in the country (which are entering dwellings of all kinds) which use birdshot? I don't know of any. They all buy from the big ammo manufacturers (due to lawyers) and does anyone know of a tactical/LE/Mil birdshot loading? I don't. Simply put, it's not used because it doesn't work. You'd be much better off with other SD weapon systems.

Re: home protection

PostPosted: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 11:33:36
by gunderwood
Remek wrote:The situation is really one that must be adjusted to.
In addition, everyone will adjust differently.

Yes, the key here is to adjust within parameters that actually work. Choose an effective weapon system that you can accept the risk of using (there always is risk with any system), don't take an effective system and make it ineffective in an attempt to minimize the risk. I would honestly rather have a can of quality bear spray and a baton than a 12ga with birdshot.

Bear spray down a hallway is going to be very hard to miss/avoid and then you can use the baton. That combo works even if they have a hostage, or are hiding behind a barrier, etc. Birdshot is next to useless in all situations except the attack directly in front of you, unarmored, no hostage or barrier, etc.