Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Discuss survival and preparedness strategies. What will you do when the zombies come to get us?

Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby Reverenddel » Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:55:45

At another site I frequent, the topic has been do you bug out, or stay put when a disaster strikes. My thought process has always been "Depends on the situation".

No one place can be perfect for ALL situations, you'd have to live in the side of a mountain at the top, with shielding, and such all around you... and even then? There is a possiblity of needing to "bug out".

Overall, how are we stacked?


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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby Username » Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:07:49

I'll bite,

I'm usually 70/30 split on the issue. I'd say 70% of situations would make me want to bug out (I live in the city) and 30% of the time I consider my home pretty defensible (solid brick, 2 doors, second floor, long narrow stairwell)
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby OakRidgeStars » Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:28:16

If you don't have a good BOL to go to in a reasonable amount of time, than you might be better off staying put. Of course, in a natural disaster situation, that might not be an option.

The old adage, "Hope for the best and prepare for the worst" definitely applies here.


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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby zephyp » Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:52:23

Indeed. If you dont have somewhere else relatively close to go then staying put might be the better choice. If you consider several scenarios then on the road who knows what or who you will run into - military, LE, gangs, etc. Also, what happens if you break down, run out of gas, have an accident. For purposes of this conversation AAA probably already bugged out too! And, what if you see the stuff coming down and you hit the road. Four hours later martial law is declared. You might end up staying somewhere you'd rather not be. Just food for thought.
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby OakRidgeStars » Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:09:58

If you live in the city, the best scenario would be to have a BOL that's more than an average car's tank of gas away. That makes it harder for the average unprepared person to make it to where you are. Of course, you have to be able to get there safely yourself. And ahead of the wave of sheeple that are sure to follow.


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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby ksanftleben » Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:16:31

Our house is in a Prince William County subdivision and my daughter's family lives in a townhouse very near by. Needless to say, we like our homes and all of our "stuff", and we want to protect that as long as possible.

That said, we also have a good-sized cabin and workshop on 7 acres up in the hills near the WV state line that would be our BOL. It's off-the-beaten-track and in a community of like-minded neighbors.

Initially, we'd try to ride out any storm here in PWC, but if things heated up, my wife, daughter, and grandkids would head out through the backroads to the cabin, while my son-in-law and I would stay to protect our homes here unless things really became untenable.

Seems to me that if you don't have well- provisioned, self-sufficient BOL that you are confident you can reach, it could be a very big mistake to bug-out because if you take to the road without that, you stand an excellent chance of winding up as a homeless refugee.

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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby gunderwood » Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:58:18

zephyp wrote:...Four hours later martial law is declared. You might end up staying somewhere you'd rather not be.


Like anywhere in a country that is ruled by the military, you have no rights and may never have them "given" back to you?
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby GS78 » Fri, 15 Jan 2010 22:36:40

It seems to me that if and when we get to a situation in which "bugging out" becomes even one option among many, then laws will be individual. If you want to prepare for this scenario, then you better come to grips with what you are actually willing to do . If you don't prepare your mind to make decisions that in other circumstances would be unimaginable, then when you need to make them, they will be ...unimaginable.
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby zephyp » Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:48:06

gunderwood wrote:
zephyp wrote:...Four hours later martial law is declared. You might end up staying somewhere you'd rather not be.


Like anywhere in a country that is ruled by the military, you have no rights and may never have them "given" back to you?


See GS78's post just above this one. Most likely ruled by gangs and lawless people. The military cant be everywhere....the only rights you would have would come from the end of a gun and depend on who had the bigger one and more pointing in the other direction...
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby gunderwood » Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:19:04

zephyp wrote:
gunderwood wrote:
zephyp wrote:...Four hours later martial law is declared. You might end up staying somewhere you'd rather not be.


Like anywhere in a country that is ruled by the military, you have no rights and may never have them "given" back to you?


See GS78's post just above this one. Most likely ruled by gangs and lawless people. The military cant be everywhere....the only rights you would have would come from the end of a gun and depend on who had the bigger one and more pointing in the other direction...


Possibly. The assumption is that martial law will be declared only in an event similar to the Haitian earthquake. I'm not so sure about this.

Second, where in the Constitution does anyone in the Federal Governement have the authority to actually declare martial law? You won't find it because our founding father never intended to have the country ruled by the military. Most of what you hear about martial law today is how the Posse Comitatus law was revoked and how they are building contingency plans. Never do they discuss where they get that authority from because they want everyone to assume they actually have it.

The only thing you will find in the Constitution is the power of Congress to suspend writ of Habeas Corpus. Most people assume this grants the Federal Government the power to declare martial law, but it doesn't. Everyone talks about Lincoln declaring martial law, but forget that the Supreme court ruled it unconstitutional and the Congress authorized it first!. If you read enough of the context around suspending Habeas Corpus, you would know that this was only to be done in the event the courts couldn't function. It was intended to prevent lawlessness as looters, etc. would know that if they were caught they would be held until the courts could resume. They weren't going to be released on a technicality.

Suspending writ of Habeas Corpus (power they do have if the courts can't function) does not give anyone the power to set up checkpoints, search homes, remove guns, or generally interfere with civilian life unless said civilian is breaking already established laws. If they are, you can arrest them and hold them until the courts can function. No other rights are allowed to be suspended by the Federal Government. Unalienable rights can not be suspended, ever, by definition. Even the power they do have, suspending writ of Habeas Corpus, only delays your rights and only because of practical reasons; i.e. there aren't any courts to try you with!

Some States have the power to declare martial law, but they clearly specify that power in their constitutions. During Hurricane Katrina, martial law could not be declared in Louisiana because no such power existed there. A declaration of emergency could be done (and was) and grant much the same powers. Search the VA Constitution (I did not know how it applied in this State), I find the following (http://legis.state.va.us/laws/search/constofva.pdf):

Section 7. Laws should not be suspended. (emphasis mine)
"That all power of suspending laws, or the execution of laws, by any authority, without consent of the representatives of the people, is injurious to their rights, and ought not to be exercised."


and

Article I. Section 13. Militia; standing armies; military subordinate to civil power.
"That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."


and

Article IV. Section 11. Enactment of Laws.
"The printing and reading, or either, required in subparagraphs (b) and (c) of this section, may be dispensed with in a bill to codify the laws of the Commonwealth, and in the case of an emergency by a vote of four-fifths of the members voting in each house, the name of each member voting and how he voted to be recorded in the journal."


and

Article IV. Section 13. Effective date of laws.
"All laws enacted at a regular session, including laws which are enacted by reason of actions taken during the reconvened session following a regular session, but excluding a general appropriation law, shall take effect on the first day of July following the adjournment of the session of the General Assembly at which it has been enacted; and all laws enacted at a special session, including laws which are enacted by reason of actions taken during the reconvened session following a special session but excluding a general appropriation law, shall take effect on the first day of the fourth month following the month of adjournment of the special session; unless in the case of an emergency (which emergency shall be expressed in the body of the bill) the General Assembly shall specify an earlier date by a vote of four-fifths of the members voting in each house, the name of each member voting and how he voted to be recorded in the journal, or unless a subsequent date is specified in the body of the bill or by general law.

The amendment ratified November 4, 1980, and effective January 1, 1981—Rewrote the section so that all laws enacted at regular sessions and reconvened sessions which follow will take effect on July 1 rather than on the first day of the fourth month following the month of adjournment, and all laws enacted at special sessions and reconvened sessions which follow will take effect on the fourth month following the month of adjournment, excluding the general appropriation laws."


and

Article V. Section 16. Succession for the office of Governor.
"In the event of an emergency or enemy attack upon the soil of Virginia and a resulting inability of the House of Delegates to convene to fill the vacancy, the Speaker of the House, the person designated to act in his stead as prescribed in the Rules of the House of Delegates, the President pro tempore of the Senate, or the majority leader of the Senate, in that designated order, shall serve as Acting Governor until such time as the House of Delegates convenes to elect a Governor.

The General Assembly may provide by law for the waiver of the eligibility requirements for the Attorney General, Speaker of the House, or acting Speaker to serve as Governor or Acting Governor in the event of an emergency or enemy attack upon the soil of Virginia as evidenced by a proclamation of the Governor or alternative authority prescribed by law."


There is no mention of Martial Law in the VA Constitution. No section provides for "emergency powers" either. Article I, Section 7 says that the representatives of the people must consent. Note that it is plural and does not say the Governor. Nor is there any section specifying that a subset of the nominal representatives is allowed, except as allowed by the emergency passing of a law.

So in order for our rights, other than Habeas Corpus, to be suspended in VA. Our representatives must meet (if they are not in session, the Governor must call an emergency session), pass a bill allowing the Governor to suspend specific rights, wait till July 1 (or 4 months as appropriate) or pass an emergency bill. Then upon suspension of our rights, the military must be solely under the Governor's rule or the body acting as governor according to succession. Interestingly enough, the way Article I, Section 13 is worded, suspension of ownership of arms is illegal even if the representatives concur. They would have to amend the VA Constitution and then pass an emergency bill. Note the Feds can't takes your arms either as they only can suspend your trial.

The astute will note that Article I, Section 7 does not strictly forbid suspension of of our rights. However, it does say it is injurious to the people and ought not to be exercised and makes no exemptions for the lawful process.

I think it is pretty clear in the VA Constitution that martial law, unless enacted by the process above and for a finite time is illegal. Any attempt, by any authority (Article I, Section 7), to do so is an attempt to overthrow the lawful government of Virginia.
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby Palladin » Sat, 16 Jan 2010 12:31:55

Well said. ^^^^

Sometimes I get the feeling that the percentage of the 'people' that understand the machinations of law and government, and would be willing to strive to uphold the good part of said law and government, is incredibly small...
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby zephyp » Sat, 16 Jan 2010 14:06:31

@gunderwood and Glen - yes, but when is the last time you saw this congress or this president read the Constitution and then say "oh yeah, says so right there, we cant do that" ????
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby GS78 » Sat, 16 Jan 2010 15:29:54

good post, and I vote for you to be our john adams..........oh and someone pass this news on to David Karesh and the kids....
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby gunderwood » Sat, 16 Jan 2010 17:16:41

zephyp wrote:@gunderwood and Glen - yes, but when is the last time you saw this congress or this president read the Constitution and then say "oh yeah, says so right there, we cant do that" ????


Step back and realize what your government actually is.

The U.S. Constitution is a contract between the States to vest certain, defined powers into a third party. To assist in managing the power vested in that entity, they created three equal branches of government and divided the power. None of those branches can renegotiate their powers or claim new ones as they are not party to the actual contract. Nor are they the final say in interrupting those powers. I.e. the Supreme Court is the final say in what is constitutional only for the other branches of government, not the States or the people. This would like your family owning a common vacation home and deciding to writing a contract to invest the power of maintainance (cut the grass, paint the fence, etc.) in a third party. Then that third party unilaterally declaring they actually own the property and can use it for their vacations, while you can't and have no say in the matter. Absurd.

It is a rare man who limits his own power for the sake of what is right. That is why our founding fathers divided the power. Not to dictate to the people what their government was allowed to do, but to challenge the other branches. The previous administration didn't stop and say "oh yeah, says so right there, we cant do that" either. Instead, they were constantly arguing for stretching their power too, just in different ways. Homeland Security anyone?

There are many quotes from our founding fathers about how when government no longer fears the people, freedom is about to be extinguished. It isn't just that the Feds don't fear the people any more, they don't even fear the States. At this point, we actually have elected US "representatives" admitting they could care less what the Constitution says. The other side of the aisle pays lip service to it, but generally ignores it too.
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby zephyp » Sun, 17 Jan 2010 09:53:39

Step back and realize what my government really is....hmmm...ok.

On the legislative side a bunch of crooks spending our money like drunken sailors and grabbing power left and right. On the executive side a group similar to the legislative side only with less power trying to grab more. The judicial. Well they just sit back and wait for things to come their way. US Constitution? Oh, the document that a lot of aforementioned folks are ignoring right now.
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby GS78 » Sun, 17 Jan 2010 10:47:06

zephyp wrote:Step back and realize what my government really is....hmmm...ok.

On the legislative side a bunch of crooks spending our money like drunken sailors and grabbing power left and right. On the executive side a group similar to the legislative side only with less power trying to grab more. The judicial. Well they just sit back and wait for things to come their way. US Constitution? Oh, the document that a lot of aforementioned folks are ignoring right now.
..... they use it like the slip sheet the car dealer puts on the floorboard so as to not get the carpet dirty.... :whistle: ...but hey at least it still has some value.
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby gunderwood » Sun, 17 Jan 2010 10:54:02

zephyp wrote:Step back and realize what my government really is....hmmm...ok.

On the legislative side a bunch of crooks spending our money like drunken sailors and grabbing power left and right. On the executive side a group similar to the legislative side only with less power trying to grab more. The judicial. Well they just sit back and wait for things to come their way. US Constitution? Oh, the document that a lot of aforementioned folks are ignoring right now.


:clap:

Yes, that is what we have today, but it isn't the legal form of government the States created. I think one of the problems is that at times, large portions of the American people are disillusioned with that piece of paper and at other times, waiting for that piece of paper to carry the burden of liberty. Not a formal argument, here but...

To address the disillusionment. Thanks in large part to the pathetic education system (whole tangent here) most people have no idea why government should be restricted and its power limited. The Constitution is viewed as a roadblock keeping the government from doing what "needs to be done" or from implementing some fancy new idea. The problem is that what "needs to be done" often means to give up liberty for security (security takes all kinds of forms, government healthcare is an attempt at a form of security) and those fancy new ideas aren't really new, but rather failed, old ideas that brought misery upon those foolish enough to try them. For examples of trading liberty for security on both sides of the aisle: to protect us against the terrorist, we pass the travesty called the Patriot Act. To protect us against a failed economy we pass another travesty the "bailout" (TARP). To protect the unions from a car manufacturer failure and ultimately you and me too, never mind the actual harm it does, we bought and run car companies. To protect us against those evil insurance companies, we are getting government run healthcare; because we all know how caring a bureaucrat is. Fear has driven us to seek security rather than liberty. The scary thing is that those are only some of the highlights in little over a year! The erosion of our liberties due to fear is accelerating, if we don't stand up soon, it will be too late.

The flip side of the coin, is trusting in a piece of paper to secure your rights. It is after all, just a piece of paper. All the paper our founders sent to Britain to redress wrongs were worthless in of themselves. If the government doesn't fear that the people will uphold their rights, with or without paper, and by force if necessary, the people surely will fear their government and liberty is no more. Sure, the tyranny may not encompass all aspects of a subjects life, but fear of the government will drive the subject to behave as a slave even in those areas where some spark of freedom still exists.

"If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave."
John Adams, Rights of the Colonists, 177

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams, Address to the Military, October 11, 1798
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby zephyp » Sun, 17 Jan 2010 11:59:45

Its not the piece of paper that gives us or the states the power. I mentioned this once before about the 10th Amendment: Its like a condom - its useless unless you insist on using it. Same goes for the rest of the Constitution. Its useless unless we insist on using it. Many of us are interested in 2A rights, but there are a lot of others being assaulted too. We collectively as Americans (and the government) must stop using the Constitution like some ala carte menu where we can pick and choose what suits us at the moment. IMO its all or none. And, I say all.
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...

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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby Palladin » Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:07:48

Some of us tend to do the same thing with the Bible.

(picking and choosing)
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Re: Staying Put, or Buggin' out

Postby zephyp » Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:16:15

Palladin wrote:Some of us tend to do the same thing with the Bible.

(picking and choosing)


Amen to that brother...maybe picking and ignoring too...
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...

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