Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby gunderwood » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 11:58:34

UnderwaterMike wrote:(1) trying to figure out a practical way to deal with attacks like this

A surprise, violent attack is very difficult. The best thing is to practice avoiding and evading. Avoid going to high crime places, avoid being out late at night, avoid large groups (particularly those who are statistically likely to commit violent crime, like men, ages 16 - 25, etc…yes, it's profiling but it will help keep you alive). Avoiding is basically best practice, but I'm obviously not advocating living your life in fear. Just use some common sense, but don't discount the fact that crime can occur anywhere and at anytime. Some of these attacks occurred in broad daylight with other people around.

Evading is essentially getting away before the act can occur/complete. Lot's of people talk about just "knowing" something is out of place or saw the group beforehand and didn't like something about it (but didn't want to profile so they continued on), etc. We're talking about your life, get over the shame and listen to that little voice in your head. Do something to get you off the X right now. Most people don't because they don't want to feel like fools when nothing does happen. Get over it; if it doesn't look/feel right, do something. Anything you do causes the potential threat to start reacting vice acting. The react control loop is much longer than the act, that buys you time to get away. I.e. you're now in control because you are acting and they are being forced to react. Even if nothing occurs, that doesn't mean nothing would have occurred.

If all that fails, you need to escape with your life. That may mean any number of things including fighting back. In this case the original attacker demonstrated AOI to cause fear of death or grave bodily harm. At that point you can use deadly force if you believe it is necessary. How long that window exists and exactly what happens within it depends on the situation and you won't know that in advance (despite all the fun hypotheticals can be). As long as the threat is still imminent, which means continued justified AOI/fear, fight for everything you're worth and with anything you have because your life is worth saving.

Where people get into trouble is typically:

1. Using deadly force for something other than deadly force. E.g. warning shots and brandishing. This seems to be very common due to the myths that get peddled around in in popular culture; just shoot to injure or whatever. Don't do it. Leave the deadly force alone until you're certain you need it. Then use is it effectively until the threat stops being a threat (AOI/fear).

2. Using deadly force where it isn't justified. This is likely what our writer friend was talking about when he mentioned proportionality, but since he responded to comments which were only stated within the hypothetical situation where AOI/fear were already justified (at the instant+ of attack), I treated them as such. As stated, if someone is using deadly force (and blows to the head are reasonably deadly in this situation as evidenced that someone did in fact die as well as common sense), there is no requirement to only use "similar" deadly force. There is no, well you were attacked with only a 6" knife so firearm calibers up to 9mm are ok in unlimited rounds, but you only get two in .45. That's absurd and you all know that. Deadly force is deadly force, regardless if it comes from a fist, a baseball bat, a car, a firearm, a baton, whatever. What you can't do is shoot someone because they threw a water balloon (not frozen) at you. That would be un-proportional, but that's not what we were discussing at all in this thread (at that point at least).

UnderwaterMike wrote:(2) get a feel for whether my expected reaction is misaligned with that of other people who carry.

Most people would reasonably view such an attack as potentially deadly. At the instant of the attack, the victim doesn't know why they're being attack, merely that they are being attack. The attack is so violent and coming from potentially a group of people that it is reasonable to fear for your life. Under those circumstances you would be justified to respond with deadly force. You could fight back with martial arts, you could draw a firearm, you could grab your taser, etc. You can continue to use deadly force until the threat isn't imminent. I.e. fear/AOI are no longer met.

In this specific attack, the victim was out cold and never had a chance to fight back. So anything beyond the initial attack is all hypothetical. The initial attack did satisfy AOI/fear and a deadly force response from the victim (if they weren't out cold) is warranted. For how long, under what details, etc is all unknown because it didn't happen. All you can do is hypothesize about may have happened next and evaluate that. Different hypothesis lead to different reasonable responses. Example:

1. The attacker realizes they didn't knock the victim out, but the victim is slow in responding (not trained, stunned, disoriented, etc.) and the attacker runs off. At that point, continuing to pursue a deadly force response will get you in jail.

2. The attacker misses because the victim was aware and able to dodge. The victim is now acting, not reacting, but the attacker is reacting. The victim, being trained/practiced as many people on here are, is fairly quick in responding with a firearm and is able to shoot several rounds a second. How many rounds are fired depends on how long the threat remains imminent (fear/AOI), but it wouldn't take many seconds before a significant number of rounds were expanded.

We could go round and round (we did) as to what exactly "happened" next, but the key question was did the original attack, justify a deadly force response from the victim. Yes, it did. Putting yourself in the victims shoes right as the attack happens, it's clear that it would be reasonable to fear for your life or grave bodily harm at that instant. The shorthand framework I like is AOI, but there are variations (IIRC, the AOI analysis was already explained way back at the beginning). Whether that reasonable fear via AOI analysis continues and for how long depends on what happened next.
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby Remek » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:14:04

Remember, this man is not a lawyer, he just plays one on this forum.
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby gunderwood » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:37:05

Remek wrote:Remember, this man is not a lawyer, he just plays one on this forum.

Please quote me where I've EVER claimed anything but that?

I asked you some very pointed questions about your positions and you ignored them only to pile on ad hominem attacks or at least attempts at slight. You never even bothered to explain the situation you where discussing or hypothesizing about, while I've done so many times. The best you did was come up with a case that says it's not an immediate threat if you can leave the scene, acquire a firearm, track the victim down, and then shoot them while they recline in bed. Seriously? No one here has ever claimed to do such a thing or suggested it was legal. You only think that because you didn't actually bother to read what was written.
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby Remek » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 21:20:37

And the best you could come up with is what... oh yeah NOTHING!!!!

You're here quite literally saying to people when its okay to do something. These people might take you seriously and you could be held liable, idiot.

Hell, you didn't even know what "prima facie" was, and went off like you did for how long? How can anyone believe a dang thing you say?
As far as pointed questions, I answered what I reasonably saw as a question. On the other hand, you just avoid completely answersing any questions. I already told you I am not a criminal attorney, I do a completely different kind of law. However, I did manage law school, and there's one thing I learned, most lawyers dont know what they're talking about. And someone is supposed to believe you do? Give me a break.

You don't know squat, and you think you do. That makes you dangerous, and you're out here giving advice to others. I only make these statements so they don't do something stupid because you are acting like you know something.

If you did know ANYTHING you could find the proper case law to cite to back up your assertions.

To the third party reader: regardless what this man says, EVERY case is dealt with ON ITS OWN TERMS, and any statements that you are safe shooting in a particular circumstance is NEVER going to perfectly apply to your case.

As I have stated over and over, make sure just before you pull that trigger that you are still reasonably in fear for your life. If the guy turns and runs away, or even walks away laughing, you very well might not be so-found reasonably in fear for your life.
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby Remek » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 21:25:52

Oh yeah, and for the logical conclusions I arrived at, that piece of case law was perfectly fine, and my reasoning holds. Hell I just did a quick and dirty, and came infintely closer to answering the question at hand a lot better than you did. Don't make fun of what you do not understand.
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby kelu » Wed, 13 Nov 2013 14:34:11

Your Time in Iraq Makes You a Threat to Society
Chambers’ problems culminated when he pulled his pistol on someone after a knife was drawn during a night out drinking. He says he made sure everyone was on the ground then took the knife from the man and “beat him.”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/11 ... o-society/
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby dorminWS » Fri, 15 Nov 2013 11:31:53

"The Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference." -Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby Taggure » Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:13:56

dorminWS wrote:http://bulletsfirst.net/2013/11/08/mans-home-castle-except-maryland-man-shoots-intruder-2am-gets-charged-murder/


This situation could happen here in Virginia with this new Anti-Gun State Administration since all we have to protect us is Case Law as well.
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby WRW » Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:38:51

Taggure wrote:
dorminWS wrote:http://bulletsfirst.net/2013/11/08/mans-home-castle-except-maryland-man-shoots-intruder-2am-gets-charged-murder/


This situation could happen here in Virginia with this new Anti-Gun State Administration since all we have to protect us is Case Law as well.


Fla. codified Castle Doctrine, Self Defense, and Stand Your Ground. Zimmerman still went to trial. Corruption or loss of touch with reality, either one, will still fabricate a charge of murder

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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby gunderwood » Sat, 16 Nov 2013 00:50:37

As far as I know there have been two knockout game incidents where the victim responded with deadly force, one killed and one injured (with a knife) and the other injured with a handgun. Also as far as I know, neither was charged with anything. Interestingly the firearm incident involved the victim shooting the attacker as he fled (not advised).

http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/intended-kno ... CBhbsrj.99

http://media2.wtnh.com/_local/documents ... 3-2012.pdf
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby kelu » Tue, 19 Nov 2013 22:49:32


I will only say that I like what he says.
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby MarcSpaz » Wed, 20 Nov 2013 03:38:59

That video is hysterical. I laughed through most of it.

And for what its worth, I don't need to be a criminal lawyer to know that if I feel my life is at risk, I will defend myself by any means necessary. And I sure as hell don't plan on hanging out for a few seconds to see if someone is going to change their mind about attacking me AFTER the attack starts. That is just plain ole' crazy.

Truth is, regardless of my position on the Virginia Bar or lack there of, I can read. The code of Virginia says I only need reasonable fear. That means I don't need to wait to get punched, stabbed or shot at. That means that if someone implies via speaking, body language, or other action, that they mean me harm, I get to react to that threat with lethal force.

And lastly, I don't give a good God damn what any laws say... someone intends to do me or my family harm, they will die... period. I could care less about legal fees, time in jail or anything else. I'll be alive and uninjured which affords me the ability to sort all that crap out later and my attacker will be dead.


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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby kelu » Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:23:27

Knockout Game Turns Deadly: 60 Year Old Woman Shoots and Kills 2 Teens After Being Punched
http://news.awfbase.com/content/knockou ... ng-punched
Go mama! :machinegun:
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby dusterdude » Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:33:18

Good for her


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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby Palladin » Sat, 23 Nov 2013 20:35:35

kelu wrote:Knockout Game Turns Deadly: 60 Year Old Woman Shoots and Kills 2 Teens After Being Punched
http://news.awfbase.com/content/knockou ... ng-punched
Go mama! :machinegun:


Wish that was true, but can you confirm this one anywhere? :roll:
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby arlington22201 » Sat, 23 Nov 2013 23:10:21

The article looks fishy: no date, no location, no local news source...

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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby SilentServiceVet » Sat, 23 Nov 2013 23:35:02

This new "game" is just one of many reasons why I no longer frequent downtown DC. As in most major cities, the police will never be close enough to keep you from an attack such as this. And as with many other large metropolitan cities, you cannot conceal carry in DC. The POS cowards who commit these acts are well aware of this fact. Hell, I had to register my Kimber Pepper Blaster II, just so I can carry it in DC. That process was a joke -- they treat pepper sprays as lethal weapons and I actually had to document which chemicals are present in the Pepper Blaster II, as some types of chemicals are not allowed.

On a related note, even the politicians are getting whacked in the head -- Rep. Grace Meng attacked, robbed near Eastern Market". To be fair, she was actually mugged and not a victim of the aforementioned game, but the mugging took place just one block from the US Capitol. For anyone not familiar with DC, the US Capitol literally marks the demarcation point where the bad neighborhoods start in Southeast DC. In recent years, developers have begun buying out the slums and low-rent government housing in SE and developing it. They built the new Nationals stadium here and high-rise condo buildings are popping up left and right, with units selling from $500k to the millions. Sounds great except this area is still a giant turd with predators. Now it's just a nicely polished turd.

Besides seeing the museums, monuments, and some other select places (which can be done in broad daylight when it's safer), there's not much reason to visit DC anyway. I've seen it all after working downtown for a decade. As I mentioned in another thread, I'm happily moving to back to the country where I can at least CC.
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby SgtBill » Sun, 24 Nov 2013 12:51:16

If I am not in direct fear of being killed or one of my family members being killed I will not shoot anyone but I will pull my weapon for the defense of another if need be or defense of me and my family. This will not mean that I will in fact shoot, I would hope that the sight of the weapon alone will stop the conflict if not then I would have to make the proper decision.
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Re: Would you respond with deadly force to an attack like this?

Postby TenchCoxe » Sun, 24 Nov 2013 13:42:30

Yeah that story about Beulah Montgomery appears to be fake. Would be nice if true, though. But it sure doesn't look like it.
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