stick up question

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stick up question

Postby GregVa » Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:31:45

After reading the crime reports of people getting held up at knife point or a "displayed handgun " I had some questions....

So if you are out walking your dog and are approached by a individual who displays a gun that is tucked in and asks for your money do you

Draw and shoot.. Or drawn and say hands on your head?

Is it considered brandishing?

If they have the gun out and you have a chance to draw and shoot then that'd better?


Posting on a tablet so this may be a bit messed up

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Re: stick up question

Postby mamabearCali » Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:52:24

Can you shoot a person who is threatening you with a gun......IANAL but if he has a gun on you he is not threatening to tickle you to death with a feather......yes I believe legally you are in the clear....if you can pull and fire.

No warning shots....no firing in the air..... No aiming for the leg. Center of mass till the threat stops. Call the police, ask for an ambulance. When the police arrive make a brief statement. He threatened me with that gun right there, I thought he was going to kill me. Then shut up. If they wish to question further ask for a lawyer and medical attention.

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Re: stick up question

Postby BertMacklin » Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:03:33

Its a strange predicament as it could go many ways, so many variables and there is no guarantee which would benefit you in the best way. I like to think that as I "hand over my wallet" they would be occupied enough to attempt an amateur stab but understand that I don't believe any amount of money is worth dying over. Its situational, chances are if they don't have the gun, or other weapon, in a way to use it accurately, like in a jacket, the best bet may be to run like hell.

On another note if your walking around at night situational awareness is key. I've dodged tweakers a few times and if you watch your surroundings then there is nothing preventing you from running across the street, moving in an undesirable direction (to see if they break off in another direction or continue following you), or basically avoid getting close to a sketchy individual before the confrontation unfolds. Also consider that an individual that would shoot or shiv you for a fix or just the cash doesn't have the ethics to prevent them from doing anything else terrible, something to consider before complying, like some would suggest is best.

If you brandish or fire, this may be considered a crime, you may be charged, disarmed and/or cuffed. Depending on how LEO is locally will decide but if you try or succeed to kill someone or pull a gun this is the natural territory even if you are in the right legally. The worst may be assumed and then, hopefully, will be cleared up later. So play it cool, listen carefully to cops commands, and if you, or a buddy is on phone with dispatch when you are armed have them describe what you look like so the first responders don't mow you down.

The beauty and horror of this is no one can tell you what to do, as there is no catch all, and you must decide for yourself.


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Re: stick up question

Postby BertMacklin » Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:09:10

Also if someone has a gun drawn on you and you ask them to put their hands up while tugging at your own, they may not listen and may fill you with holes. If your going to draw, the time for words is likely gone, and your best off using the machine as intended.


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Re: stick up question

Postby GregVa » Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:22:38

Bert.. I think my original post may have not made sense, since I was posting from my mobile. In some of the descriptions of muggings it seems like the perp displays a hand gun. Now that can be one of two things a full draw and pointed at you, or tucked a way and displayed briefly as a threat.

If its a full draw and you are at gun point, then I know you have little chance to draw and shoot. If the perp does a quick show and demands money, then that's my question do you just draw and shoot, or draw and say freeze?

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Re: stick up question

Postby mamabearCali » Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:54:02

If you don't want to shoot I recommend throwing your wallet as far as you can in to the opposite direction as you. Never hand it to anyone.

Advice given to be by a LEO..... Throw your wallet as hard as you can away from you and them. Then back up and draw because he may be using the get your money as a diversion to get you.

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Re: stick up question

Postby vaeevictiss » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 01:54:13

I'd figure that would just make them pissed. Act nervous and scared, you probably will be anyway. Fumble around and drop it and then if you think you can draw in that couple seconds while he picks it up then drive one down his neck from the top of his head.

I think about this situation from time to time and when a gun is in your face I really see no safe way to get the upper hand unless it gets to the point where they want more and you have nothing left to give.

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Re: stick up question

Postby zykur » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 08:31:37

If in this scenario where the gun is in the attackers waistband I doubt things would go slowly enough where you could tell them to put their hands up.
At this point you have to think about if you can live yourself if you can deal with shooting someone and most likely killing someone.

I believe if you are going to draw your gun it had to be yell stop while drawing and squeeze two center mass call 911 and like others say tell the police you were threatened with a gun then shut up.

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Re: stick up question

Postby Remek » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:47:32

A gun pointed at your is an overt threat. The person asking for money cannot be reasonably assumed to just want money. They may just want to make sure they get it, then shoot you so there are no witnesses.

There is no advice here on when to shoot or not. However, if you do shoot: tell the police you were scared for your life, and you shot "to stop the threat". That's it. Don't explain anything else. Tell them you are too flustered to talk and want to talk to your lawyer before you say anything else. That's it.
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Re: stick up question

Postby dorminWS » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:01:41

Remek wrote:A gun pointed at your is an overt threat. The person asking for money cannot be reasonably assumed to just want money. They may just want to make sure they get it, then shoot you so there are no witnesses.

There is no advice here on when to shoot or not. However, if you do shoot: tell the police you were scared for your life, and you shot "to stop the threat". That's it. Don't explain anything else. Tell them you are too flustered to talk and want to talk to your lawyer before you say anything else. That's it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And don't say, "He was going to ROB me". You aren't allowed to protect mere property with deadly force. Even though he was going to rob you, that's not why you shot him and you don't want to say anything to raise that inference.

Say" He was going to KILL me with that GUN he THREATENED me with." THAT's why you shot him. You can defend your life (or that of another) with deadly force.

I'm not telling you to lie. I'm suggesting how you express the facts. If that AIN'T the facts, you'd damned well better not have shot the bastard.
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Re: stick up question

Postby Reverenddel » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:41:13

Repeating this mantra:

"I feared for my life, He had a weapon, I would prefer to have a lawyer present at any further questioning. Thank you"


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Re: stick up question

Postby gunderwood » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:28:12

Reverenddel wrote:Repeating this mantra:

"I feared for my life, He had a weapon, I would prefer to have a lawyer present at any further questioning. Thank you"

+1

Expect that they will keep trying to ask you questions, but you do not have to answer and you should not answer (at this time, get a lawyer). These are not magic words that prevent the LEOs from continuing to ask about the incident.


The hypothetical you've described does justify the use of deadly force, but how you employ that is up to you. For example, it may be wiser to throw your wallet and run or maybe not. Just because you legally can use deadly force doesn't mean you must. I believe it meets the legal requirement for deadly force response because:

Ability: The firearm or knife or other weapon (could also be a group not displaying a weapon, etc…remember reasonable person with ONLY the victims knowledge at the time of the incident) would consider the threats Ability to cause death or grave bodily harm.

Opportunity: The threat is right there and within a reasonable distance to harm you. The general rule of thumb for hand-to-hand weapons (i.e. non-ranged) is 21ft. That's not a hard number, but rather an estimate based on LE testing/drills. It's also the minimum a reasonably trained person, who doesn't have to remove concealment (e.g. OC like a LEO), can accomplish the defense. For the given situation, a reasonable person would conclude that the threat has opportunity to cause fear of grave bodily harm or death.

Intent: The threat has only asked for money, but their intent isn't just words. The implicit statement they are making with the deadly force (aka Ability section) is that if you don't comply they will use it. A reasonable person would consider the threat of the use of deadly force in this situation to be cause for fear of death or grave bodily harm.

Thus, I conclude that a reasonable person would consider there to be fear of death or grave bodily harm and thus, a deadly force response on the part of the victim is justified. Tactically it may or may not be the wise thing to do and some level of training or competition will help you understand your boundaries as well as balance accuracy and speed.

The AOI paradigm is a summary of the legality of SD in most states in the Union. It is not universal as some states/localities have all but banned SD, a few even expand it further (e.g. Texas & property). It's shorthand to assist the average person determine what is reasonable in a timely fashion, it is not a finer point analysis that your lawyer would do, but the conclusions (justified use of deadly force) would be the same. (Do I have to put this disclaimer on everything now?)
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Re: stick up question

Postby JustinCase » Sat, 16 Nov 2013 15:44:37

Image

I was thinking of the wrong stick up... :hysterical:


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