home protection

Re: home protection

Postby dorminWS » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:59:59

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Re: home protection

Postby Remek » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:26:58

I enjoy iraqveteran8888's stuff. Another good video.
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Re: home protection

Postby Hammer » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:36:42

What are your thoughts on the Taurus Judge and S&W Govenor?

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Re: home protection

Postby gunderwood » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 12:42:25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 29mEJFFIvo



My problem is that the basic premise is flawed. The problem is multifaceted and they are only evaluating one parameter of it. An even "safer" solution is to not use a firearm at all, can't have misses if you're not shooting anything. Rhetoric yes, but to make a point.

Birdshot has been shown to be inadequate for SD/HD/LE use by evaluation against the FBI spec as well as case studies in the real world. The primary use of a SD/HD firearm is to stop the threat, if it can not do that reliably, then it isn't of much use at all. Paper-cuts hurt, but they won't stop a rapist.

My standard for stopping a threat reliably is the FBI specification at a minimum. That means 12-18" of penetration. Beyond that I want the largest expansion/wound channel and I want it as early as possible. I don't want the HP/etc. causing most of the damage after it has passed the vitals. Penetration through heavy clothing, car doors, windshields, etc. is also worth considering (mostly for handguns). You're free to choose your own standard (like they did in the video with the steel plate), but at least do some reading up on how the FBI spec came into being and how/why it is specified the way it is. I.e. minimums on effectiveness as well as maximums to avoid undue risk. FYI, every ammo manufacturer that sells to an LEA in the country builds/tests their ammo to this spec. Most LEA legal departs won't consider a load that's outside of this specification.

The FBI specs haven't always been "right" either. They've gone through fast&light as well as slow&heavy phases for handguns. The spec evolved over several decades based on lab testing and real world shootings. However, it has been fairly stable for over a decade and simply put, it works.

Birdshot simply fails to even come close to passing the FBI spec and no LEA I'm aware of (who are shooting in the same situations as you are when discussing interior wall penetration) use it because an ineffective weapon may get you killed. That's not to say that birdshot doesn't do damage or that it can't work, but it's demonstrable true that it's generally not effective.
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Re: home protection

Postby GeneFrenkle » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:19:44

+1

Birdshot will not even reliably take down coyote (dog sized), so why would one presume it would stop a human-sized attacker bent on doing significant harm or murder? Possibly on narcotics, too, so they won't even feel anything? Threats to life need to be immediately _stopped_.

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Re: home protection

Postby Hammer » Wed, 13 Nov 2013 07:14:34

I know nothing about shotgun stopping power versus handguns, but it seems shotgun ammo is easier to obtain. How effective would the .410 be against a human intruder? I believe that's the alternate round for th Judge and Govener. I'm assuming it would rate somewhere between birdshot and 12 gauge?

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Re: home protection

Postby dorminWS » Wed, 13 Nov 2013 10:36:33

I was amazed that the birdshot penetrated as much drywall as it did. But the learning for me was that with anything BUT birdshot, you pretty much might as well be shooting slugs out of a pistol as buckshot of any size as far as penetration of surrounding structures goes. In fact, it might sometimes be worse because you have more stray projectiles. So why use a shotgun? Well, you get a 4"-5" pattern and a little more chance of hitting what you might be shooting at in the dark and under a lot of stress. There might be some intimidation value to a shotgun; particularly if it is a pump and they hear that unmistakable pump action ratchet. But mostly, you get an ounce or more of lead in the air at roughly 120-140% of the velocity of that 230 grain .45ACP round. Since there are 7000 grains per pound, that 230-grain .45ACP boolit will weight (16/7000)*230, or .5257 ounces. Of course, there is also the issue of how many buckshot hit the target. Assuming 975 fps for the .45 round and 1200 fps for the 12 gauge round, the .45 has 975/1200, or .8125 as much velocity as the 12 gauge. (Note: I am approximating these velocities, but they are in the ballpark as far as I can remember. If I’m off, I’ve shown the math and you can crunch your own numbers.) So, if you take the .5257 of a pound of the .45 round times the .8125 fraction of the velocity (and assuming a 1-ounce shot load - I think I've seen as much as 1.5 ounce loads in some 10-gauge shells), I'd guess a rough approximation would be that if you got .427 (or 42.7%) of the buckshot into the target, you'd still deliver the same amount of energy as the 230 grain .45 round.

I never thought about it that way before; but it sheds new light on the use of a shotgun for close quarters personal defense - or at least it does for me.
"The Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference." -Thomas Jefferson
Gun-crazy? Me? I'd say the gun-crazy ones are the ones that don’t HAVE one.


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I can always use another 1911.

Re: home protection

Postby dmharvey » Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:12:49

#4 buck would be my choice and I'd probably stick with 2 3/4" shells, especially if the shotgun just had a pistol grip.
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