Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

This is a situation that has come up on a different board that I am a part of--a member there that I have interacted with before posted this. It is situational tactics--always good to think of

what would you do?

Situation:

Place: Hair Salon

There are a small number of adults (most women), at least one toddler and Two very young elem. school children

Two men come in look around, pull out guns, demand money from everyone. They wave guns at everyone! Beat up a guy because he tries to tell the babies everything will be ok. They leave.

I am posting it here, because VA laws on self defense are different than TX laws (they have a very strong castle law)

This is what I would do if faced with that situation. If it is a smash and grab (quick fast and in a hurry like most robberies are) I throw them my diaper bag (no wallet in it, nothing identifying in it, just my kids first name on his sippy cup), and let them take off with it. When they start taking the time to beat up people though things get more complicated. If they just hit the guy once and run out the door all done. But if it looks like they are going to beat this man to death, then we have a problem and I would look for a way to end this quickly.

Here is where I get sketchy. If a BG points a gun at a police officer the police officer will shoot him, because he has to assume that he intends on using that gun. In TX if you think you have the opportunity to end the robbery without potential injury to the by standers you are free and clear to shoot (castle doctrine). Is it the same here in VA or could you end up in a bunch of hot water because the robbers had not actually committed physical violence yet (well until they hit the guy).

Let me be a little more specific if you shot the Bad guys as they were robbing another customer and after they had already pointed a gun at you and everyone else are you in the clear here in VA.

mamabearCali wrote:This is a situation that has come up on a different board that I am a part of--a member there that I have interacted with before posted this. It is situational tactics--always good to think of

what would you do?

Situation:

Place: Hair Salon

There are a small number of adults (most women), at least one toddler and Two very young elem. school children

Two men come in look around, pull out guns, demand money from everyone. They wave guns at everyone! Beat up a guy because he tries to tell the babies everything will be ok. They leave.

I am posting it here, because VA laws on self defense are different than TX laws (they have a very strong castle law)

This is what I would do if faced with that situation. If it is a smash and grab (quick fast and in a hurry like most robberies are) I throw them my diaper bag (no wallet in it, nothing identifying in it, just my kids first name on his sippy cup), and let them take off with it. When they start taking the time to beat up people though things get more complicated. If they just hit the guy once and run out the door all done. But if it looks like they are going to beat this man to death, then we have a problem and I would look for a way to end this quickly.

Here is where I get sketchy. If a BG points a gun at a police officer the police officer will shoot him, because he has to assume that he intends on using that gun. In TX if you think you have the opportunity to end the robbery without potential injury to the by standers you are free and clear to shoot (castle doctrine). Is it the same here in VA or could you end up in a bunch of hot water because the robbers had not actually committed physical violence yet (well until they hit the guy).

Let me be a little more specific if you shot the Bad guys as they were robbing another customer and after they had already pointed a gun at you and everyone else are you in the clear here in VA.

Not sure why I'm in a hair salon, but since I typically don't carry cash and consequently have between 0 and 2 dollars on me at any given time, I'd just had it over. Credit cards aren't my problem as I wouldn't be liable for anything they do with them.

As for the guy they "beat up and leave", I don't think a few kicks justifies shooting them, he will recover.

Kreutz wrote:
As for the guy they "beat up and leave", I don't think a few kicks justifies shooting them, he will recover.

I hope he did. A few kicks to me (or to your wife) might however cost you and your wife the life of your 4th child and possibly (if there is placental abruption) the life of your wife as well. Just want to point out that even one punch to the head or one kick to the abdomen is all it can take sometimes to be fatal. Just because you think you could take a few hits does not mean everyone could.

People die from less than two hits all the time...

I carry a leather money clip because I would rather lose MONEY than my Credit Cards, ID, CHP, etc. etc.

It cost MORE to replace those, and go with out those...

As to my response? Depends on so many variants, and whether I am "Legal" or not isn't even in my mind... In my world? I'd rather walk away, and get a good lawyer, than hesitate, and die thinking "Well? Was it justifiable homicide?"

In a situation like that I'd hand over my wallet, as painful as that would be. I'm not going to try to play hero.

Not to mention most of the time I am at my salon ( ) I am unarmed, since it's usually right after work and I don't (read: can't) carry there.

Of course you do what you must to ensure your children and you live. Legalities is something you deal with later. But since we aren't actually there I was wondering if anyone knew the legalities.

Va law states that you can use lethal force if you believe you or another is in eminent danger. Period.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Is your death imminent? Are you fearful for your or your children's life? Let 'er rip. Just my opinion... IANAL

Statistically speaking you have a better chance of surviving if shoot at them IIRC.

If my kids are with me I will do whatever is necessary to protect them regardless of laws, acceptable social standards, or consequences post incident. If my child lives, whatever I must endure from a judgmental society afterwards is worth it.

I just don't think the odds are in your favor. 2 bad guys on 1 good guy with innocents around. From the information we are given they are just going around collecting money... I'd be ready to fight if I had to but given that information I think I'd be focusing on gathering as much visual information as possible to give to the police.

Now if they blazed in the door and started shooting... that's a different story.

I seem to remember learning that in Virginia you may use deadly force to protect your life or the life of others but MAY NOT use deadly force to protect property; and therein lies the trap.
If you wade in and shoot this guy, you are virtually certain to be second-guessed.
If you shot him while he was leveling a gun at you or someone else and cocking the hammer, having just said “I’m gonna kill you.”, It may be pretty clear that you did not use excess force.
If he was breaking somebody’s knees and elbows one at a time with a ball peen hammer when you shot him, would you be held at a later date to have used excessive force?
If he was slapping some guy around and asking for money and you shot him, if you didn’t kill him he’ll probably get a lawyer and come after everything you own.
There’s a lot of room for second-guessing on the use of deadly force. And who the h3ll knows what’s REASONABLE anymore? Being a hero may be a hoot while you’re getting patted on the back, but it seldom pays well, and sometimes it just plain sucks.

Let's be honest...

Here's what's really going to happen... Depending on what type of salon?
Depends on the outcome.

If it's a mani-pedi salon? The owners/workers won't speak English, and the robbers won't speak Vietnamese/Thai. Everyone screams, and runs around. Just sit tight, and out the way.

If it's in the back counties? Lurleen, and her "girl power" workers will pull THEIR pistols, and dust their robbin' keisters like end tables.

If it's in the city? The gay guy (AND THEIR ALWAYS IS ONE DAMMIT!) will scream, and faint. The other girls (noticed I said "OTHER" girls) will become indignant and attitudinal to the point of distracting them as I make my way out back, and the hippie chick who washes hair will try to "sympathize" with their plight, and annoy the hell out of them.

D.C./NY/Chicago/LA- Never happened because NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO OWN A FRIGGIN' WEAPON! Remember!?

double post...how did that happen?

I like the laws in TX better (where this happened) there it is without question that you could shoot and kill the person robbing you and would be totally immune from prosecution by TX state code. It makes the criminals more afraid and the law abiding citizens less.

I am not really talking about being a hero here--I am just thinking that if these guys have a gun on me and my kids that to me constituted a deadly threat to everyone there. All they have to do is put their finger on the trigger pow-- pow-- pow-- pow and everyone there is dead--that can happen before they have said "I'm going to kill you." and cock the gun (doubler action anyone). They have put everyone in that store in legitimate fear for their lives. I have no desire to be a hero, I just want to ensure my kids and I walk out alive.

I would not sit there and watch, as you seemed to indicate that I should (perhaps I misunderstood you), them hit a person with a hammer repeatedly. Lethal force does not have to equal many blows--sometimes one hit can kill.

Reverenddel wrote:Let's be honest...

Here's what's really going to happen... Depending on what type of salon?
Depends on the outcome.

If it's a mani-pedi salon? The owners/workers won't speak English, and the robbers won't speak Vietnamese/Thai. Everyone screams, and runs around. Just sit tight, and out the way.

If it's in the back counties? Lurleen, and her "girl power" workers will pull THEIR pistols, and dust their robbin' keisters like end tables.

If it's in the city? The gay guy (AND THEIR ALWAYS IS ONE DAMMIT!) will scream, and faint. The other girls (noticed I said "OTHER" girls) will become indignant and attitudinal to the point of distracting them as I make my way out back, and the hippie chick who washes hair will try to "sympathize" with their plight, and annoy the hell out of them.

D.C./NY/Chicago/LA- Never happened because NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO OWN A FRIGGIN' WEAPON! Remember!?

I think this was at a hair-cuttery type shop or a children's hair cut store.

I think maybe you did misunderstand a little. By "being a hero", I didn't mean anything disparaging - just that you'd step up and take action. In the case of an unprovoked attack on the helpless, far's I'm concerned that makes you sho-nuff a hero.

When I was talking about breaking knees and elbows one at a time, I was positing a situation where the attacker was doing so. So the situation would be that he was inflicting horrible wounds under circumstances where it was not clear (or may later be argued not to have been) that he meant to or was likely to kill his victim. This sets up the question of whether use deadly force is acceptable. If you use your gun to shoot him in the elbow of the arm that's holding the hammer, is that excessive force? Honest answer: HELL, I DON'T KNOW!

Dormins you must be a much better shot than I am. The elbow--an elbow that is moving in a situation where my fine motor skills are shot-- . No if I have to shoot someone I am going to be going for center mass.

On the horrible wound/killing bit. When I took my CHL course I seem to remember being told that through VA case law you could defend yourself and others from grievous bodily harm (rape/beatings/breaking of fingers and elbows with a hammer).

(Calling out in a loud voice)
Anyone here a CHL instructor, I know there are a few around here.

Reverenddel wrote:Let's be honest...

Here's what's really going to happen... Depending on what type of salon?
Depends on the outcome.

If it's a mani-pedi salon? The owners/workers won't speak English, and the robbers won't speak Vietnamese/Thai. Everyone screams, and runs around. Just sit tight, and out the way.

If it's in the back counties? Lurleen, and her "girl power" workers will pull THEIR pistols, and dust their robbin' keisters like end tables.

If it's in the city? The gay guy (AND THEIR ALWAYS IS ONE DAMMIT!) will scream, and faint. The other girls (noticed I said "OTHER" girls) will become indignant and attitudinal to the point of distracting them as I make my way out back, and the hippie chick who washes hair will try to "sympathize" with their plight, and annoy the hell out of them.

D.C./NY/Chicago/LA- Never happened because NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO OWN A FRIGGIN' WEAPON! Remember!?

That's about as true as it gets.

dorminWS wrote:I seem to remember learning that in Virginia you may use deadly force to protect your life or the life of others but MAY NOT use deadly force to protect property;

They have guns and are DEMANDING property. That is coercion under threat of lethal force. Translation: your life is in imminent danger.

Easy answer. Shoot them.

Now, the beauty is that they are already engaged in at least two felony crimes - Strongarm Robbery and the use of a firearm in the commission of a felony.

If ANYTHING should happen to an innocent bystander by your actions of SELF-DEFENSE then VA law places the responsibility for their injuries on the perpetrators of the crime, not on you.

If I am in a position to defend my life, then I will. Defense of property limitations do not apply to having property forcibly taken from you.