Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Listed below is a draft document I have been working on that has a summary of the laws applicable in Northern Virginia. Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, and I take no responsibility for this information being accurate. If you take actions based on this information, you do so at your own risk.

But I am interested in having a list of what I can and cannot do as a gun owner and future CCL holdder. Can the foru m review these and see if I got them right? I am not intending to capture every subtlety of the law, but just want to make sure I understand the things I will need to keep in my head.

Please feel free to give feedback on the content.

BTW, there really needs to be consistency to these laws...way too many to keep track of...my God! That is my complaint. I don't mind the reasonable restrictions, but I shouldn't have to pull my gun out of my car.
D4G

Handgun Rules WITHOUT Concealed Permit
In-State Vehicle Transportation
• Cannot be carried on your person in concealed manner loaded or unloaded.
• Can be carried loaded in a visible holster. Can be placed loaded inside glove box or console. Must be in a container. If pulled over by police, keep hands on wheel and notify officer.
• Can also be placed in a visible area of the vehicle but not the best practice.
• Always safest and least legal risk to transport in the trunk unloaded.
• Maryland and DC require and separate in trunk of car only for transport through;
• NOTE: George Washington Parkway between I-66 and I-395 are under DC law so avoid or keep in trunk unloaded.
Public Transportation
• May Open-Carry on Metro and Buses but no entry into DC or Maryland. Best to leave it at home.
• Transportation of firearm through Maryland requires gun and ammunition to be separate and locked in trunk.
• No K-12 School Buses
Open Carry
• May Open-Carry loaded firearm except in forbidden places. Open-Carry not advisable in crowded areas.
• May NOT carry in a concealed manner without a Concealed Permit
Forbidden Places
• K-12 Schools no Open-Carry. Firearm may be inside container or glove box, loaded, and you must stay in vehicle. To park and leave vehicle on school property, firearm must be unloaded in trunk or locked container.
• Church Property No Open-Carry during any services
• US, Virginia, or Fairfax Government Buildings, but not National Parks or State Forests;
• National Forests and State Parks: Open-Carry allowed where hunting is allowed
• VCU and George Mason Universities, except by permission.
• Private Property when prohibited by owner (Watch for HOA’s and COA’s that prohibit on common property)
Airline Transportation
• Each airline has specific procedures. Check with Airlines
• No firearms or ammunition in carry-on bags;
• No Open-Carry or Vehicle-Carry to airport. Handgun must be unloaded, locked in container separate from ammunition and only for the purpose of personal air travel or customs declaration.
• TSA requires firearms be encased in hard-shelled locked enclosure with ammunition in separate containers in separate baggage
• TSA requires that you declare the firearms when checking-in for the flight and inspection of firearms. Baggage will be specially marked to show firearms.
Fairfax, Vienna, Falls Church, Alexandria, and Arlington, Virginia
• No discharge of firearms for any purpose EXCEPT:
o At a licensed firing or hunting range;
o Fairfax: On Personal Property of 20 acres or larger and only if posted with signs stating firearms are in use on the property (Some exceptions for property owners with as little as 5 acres);
o Fairfax: Protecting anyone from death or great bodily harm (including yourself);
o Arlington: Lawful self-defense or lawful defense of Property;
o Vienna and Falls Church: Justifiable use, self-defense and defense of Property;
o NOTE: “Defense of Property” has been drastically weakened through CaseLaw and should not be used to justify use of deadly force or even brandishing a weapon.
Bars and Alcohol
• Operators and owners of Bars may allow Open-Carry or deny Open-Carry
• No alcoholic consumption while carrying firearm.
________________________________________________
Handgun WITH Concealed Permit
In-State Vehicle Transportation
• Can be carried on your person in concealed manner loaded or unloaded.
Public Transportation
• May Carry on Metro and Buses but no entry into DC or Maryland.
• Transportation of firearm through Maryland requires gun and ammunition to be separate and locked in trunk.
• No K-12 School Buses
Forbidden Places
• K-12 Schools: May NOT leave vehicle while carrying on school property. May carry loaded and concealed or inside container or glove box while in a private vehicle. To leave vehicle, must have unloaded with ammunition separate in trunk or container.
• Church Property Carry during any services: although VA Attorney General has offered opinion that it is allowed to carry on church property, but untested as of yet. Church may prohibit firearms.
• US, Virginia, or Fairfax Government Buildings, but not National Parks or State Forests;
• National Forests and State Parks;
• VCU and George Mason Universities, except by permission.
• Private Property when prohibited by owner (Watch for HOA’s and COA’s that prohibit on common property)
Airline Transportation
• Handgun must be unloaded, locked in container separate from ammunition and only for the purpose of personal air travel or customs declaration.
• TSA requires firearms be encased in hard-shelled locked enclosure with ammunition in separate containers in separate baggage
• TSA requires that you declare the firearms when checking-in for the flight and inspection of firearms. Baggage will be specially marked to show firearms.
Bars and Alcohol
• No Concealed Carry where alcohol is served;
• No alcoholic consumption while carrying firearm.

dems4guns wrote: Can be carried loaded in a visible holster. Can be placed loaded inside glove box or console. Must be in a container. If pulled over by police, keep hands on wheel and notify officer.

Keeping one's hands on the wheel during a traffic stop is probably a good idea; but, I don't think it's the law. Notifying an officer during a traffic stop that you have a gun in the car may be unwise. Pretty sure it's not required by law.

dems4guns wrote: No alcoholic consumption while carrying firearm.

If we are talking about the law and not what may be good advice... No drinking only pertains to concealed carry while within a VA ABC licensed establishment - can concealed carry and drink at other places. Also, it's OK to drink while open carrying within a VA ABC licensed establishment. Can't be legally drunk while carrying anywhere though.

dems4guns wrote:No Concealed Carry where alcohol is served

You can carry concealed where alcohol is served, you just can't drink while carrying concealed.

Sounds like you have a list of things that you can and can't do, mixed with some opinions and a few mistakes.

Why not just take a class that covers this? - http://proactiveshooters.com/general-co ... rry-in-va/

Does Fairfax have restrictions in place contrary to the State preemption pertaining to government buildings?

This is great feedback and input.

I want to get to the bottom of one thing mentioned here: Concealed Carry in an establishment that serves alcohol.

I found this on the state police website:

"§18.2-308 (J.3.): No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer."

So, I have to make that correction to the document. Thanks for the feedback.

Please note that I found this document on the VCDL, which appears to be in error as it relates to bars and restaurants: http://www.vcdl.org/surveys/survey_2007.html
Perhaps this was changed in a later amendment.

Would Private clubs would be exempt?

Also, good point about being legally drunk and carrying...that will be added.

You are right about some of these things are for my own "good advice." I will modify the document to note the personal parts.

Thanks for everyone's attention.

I am not sure what Cyras21 is asking. I don't know the answer. Cyras, are you suggesting that something in the document is in error?

Thanks again,
D4g

dems4guns wrote: Would Private clubs would be exempt?

Not if the club has a VA ABC license for on-premises consumption, and I think an ABC license is required by law:

§ 4.1-316. Keeping or drinking alcoholic beverages upon premises of club; penalty.

No person operating a club for profit or otherwise, either public or private, shall (i) keep or allow to be kept any alcoholic beverages, either by himself or any other person, upon the premises or (ii) permit the drinking of any alcoholic beverages upon the premises, unless he is licensed to sell alcoholic beverages.

Under forbidden areas you have Fairfax Government buildings. I looked through the County code, not city though so I was wondering if there was something you found that did not allow the carrying of weapons in city or county buildings.

I don't think you are correct about marking baggage that contain firearms when traveling by air. That was changed because of the, very likely, possibility of theft of the gun(s).
Please re-check your references.

Unless the firearms by air changed, you only put a declaration card inside your lock box. Then your suitcase is locked too.

That is a steal me sign if you have it external.

I have traveled ALOT and NEVER tagged outside my bag.

I am looking at travelling to Florida in July and I called the airline and the WMATA police. They told me that the TSA has to mark the baggage as carrying firearms otherwise the normal screening process would pick it up during the x-ray/scans. I think she said it would be searched and screened separately at the baggage security counter and bypass the normal xray process.

But that reminds me that I need to ask about shipping the firearm to Florida instead of going through the hassle at the Airport. Is it legal to ship the firearm to Florida at my brothers house and then ship it back to myself? If I send my firearm back to Ruger for repair, can they ship it back to me at my home address legally?

If I purchase a gun in Florida at a gun show, can I ship it back to myself at my home address as long as it is a legal purchase at the show?

Thanks,
D4G

Please note that Virginia is not a must notify state. In fact, if you look through the threads on this site you will find a lot of people advising not to notify if you are pulled over.

Granted, none of that is legal advise, however, some who have made these comments are either current or former LEO's.

dems4guns wrote: ... I need to ask about shipping the firearm to Florida instead of going through the hassle at the Airport. Is it legal to ship the firearm to Florida at my brothers house and then ship it back to myself?

Yes; so long as you ship it to yourself, but this can get complex if it's a handgun. USPS regs won't allow shipment of handguns by those non-licensed (no FFL). UPS and FedEx have their own strict regulations that may result in very onerous and costly shipping. Best to check their regulations carefully.

dems4guns wrote: If I send my firearm back to Ruger for repair, can they ship it back to me at my home address legally?

No problem since Ruger has an FFL.

dems4guns wrote:If I purchase a gun in Florida at a gun show, can I ship it back to myself at my home address as long as it is a legal purchase at the show?

What type of firearm and are you sure you can make a legal purchase in Florida?

dems4guns wrote: Also, good point about being legally drunk and carrying...that will be added.

I should have been more precise. The gun law only applies to concealed carrying while intoxicated.

Of course, if you are open carrying and intoxicated, you are likely to be charged with a non-gun violation such as disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace. Plenty of local ordinance potential charges here...

It sounds like I should go back to my dealer to have him ship it back to the manufacturer and have them ship it back to him and pick it up....sounds like a lot less hassle and less cost.

I think I will go ahead with the air transportation in baggage....otherwise same shipping issues.

I would likely be purchasing another handgun in Florida. Their laws are almost the same as here as it regards handguns, although they don't have the 30 day limit. I will likely have my CHP by then and it is recognized in Florida.

Thoughts?
D4G

dems4guns wrote: I would likely be purchasing another handgun in Florida. Their laws are almost the same as here as it regards handguns, although they don't have the 30 day limit. I will likely have my CHP by then and it is recognized in Florida.
Thoughts?
D4G

I'm assuming you are a VA resident since in a previous post you stated that you have lived in VA for more than 20 years. Purchasing a handgun in FL will result in FFL shipping and transfer fees in addition to the purchase cost. Why not buy in VA?

Yes, I am VA resident.
Good question: My brother lives down there and there is a big gun show in Orlando on July 2-3. Next big gun show here in NoVa is July 29. Thought it might be good to shop with my brother, who has a lot more experience. And, just be fun to do it with him.

I guess I could put it in my baggage lock-box and bring it back with me. Or would that be illegal?

Man, these gun laws are just TOO complicated.

I am interested in lobying to make it easier to take care of my own firearms without running afoul of one law or another. The laws should be consistently applied and easy to understand and easy to follow. It is clearly not.

dems4guns wrote:Yes, I am VA resident.
I guess I could put it in my baggage lock-box and bring it back with me. Or would that be illegal?

As I recall, that would be a federal felony. Federal law requires that any handgun transfer like you are considering must be via an in-state FFL (within VA in your case).

dems4guns wrote: Man, these gun laws are just TOO complicated.

I am interested in lobying to make it easier to take care of my own firearms without running afoul of one law or another. The laws should be consistently applied and easy to understand and easy to follow. It is clearly not.

Yes, gun laws can be confusing. But, they are nowhere near as strange and illogical as tax law. In my younger days I thought about going to law school. Did not work out me though - the admissions department found out my parents were married.

The Commonwealth of Viginia gun laws pre-empt local laws. No such thing as "Gun Laws for NoVa." So the title of your post could be misleading (IMHO). Best source of state gun laws is the Virgini Code; for summary of gun laws, refer to the VCDL card listing places where carrying is prohibited. Better still, be a member of VCDL and receive the latest information about gun laws and legislative alerts.

Appreciate your efforts, though.

What about if you're in an SUV and don't have a concealed carry? How are you supposed to keep gun and ammo in a trunk and locked? :-/