Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

I just purchased a 11.5 in upper receiver for my AR, and as fun as it is to shoot...I don't really want to go to jail. So i figured I'd go ahead and register it. How do i go about doing this, and is there anything else i should know about it?

Thanks a lot for your help.

s2thalayer wrote:I just purchased a 11.5 in upper receiver for my AR, and as fun as it is to shoot...

So you currently have a 11.5" upper, and have used it on your AR, and its not registered as an SBR?
And you've posted this to a public forum?

Perhaps not the best idea.

I don't really want to go to jail. So i figured I'd go ahead and register it. How do i go about doing this,

You need to fill out and file an ATF form 1, application to make a firearm.

and is there anything else i should know about it?

There is a lot to know about NFA (SBR/SBS/machine guns)... If you can be a bit more specific perhaps I can answer.

You've already committed a felony by putting the short upper on the lower.

And you are continuing to commit a felony by having the upper in your possession. Its called constructive possession. You need to get the short upper out of your possession and/or control.

Nah, havent put it on yet. I recently bought it from my friend. Shot it with him, bought it when he was in a bind.

Alright, ill be more specific. The lower i have is a Carbon-15. I bought it from a friend also. He claims he bought it at a gun show...so it's not registered to me and i have no idea the history of the rifle. I don't know if that would come into question in a form or not because the rifle is not registered to me.

I plan to register the lower as an SBR if that's possible. How do i get these forms. I understand there is a form 1 and 4 i need to sign as well as get the lower engraved. But i don't really know where to begin.

The upper is not a weapon, so from what i understand, i can own it all i want as spare parts as long as it is not attached to a lower.

If i run into too many problems here i'll just pop the barrel off the upper and get a longer one.

s2thalayer wrote:Alright, ill be more specific. The lower i have is a Carbon-15. I bought it from a friend also. He claims he bought it at a gun show...so it's not registered to me and i have no idea the history of the rifle. I don't know if that would come into question in a form or not because the rifle is not registered to me.

Virginia doesn't register firearms to people, so no problem there... assuming this was not a registered SBR when your friend had it.

I plan to register the lower as an SBR if that's possible. How do i get these forms. I understand there is a form 1 and 4 i need to sign as well as get the lower engraved. But i don't really know where to begin.

Form 1 is you making a SBR, form 4 is transfer of an existing SBR to you.

ATF form 1 here: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf

The upper is not a weapon, so from what i understand, i can own it all i want as spare parts as long as it is not attached to a lower.

You understand incorrectly. You are currently in possession of a short barreled upper, than can only be assembled with other parts in your possession to create an unregistered short barrel rifle.

This is a felony.

Well, i do have a pistol lower in my possession also, so i suppose technically i could just say it goes to that.

Anyway, this lower has never been an SBR. I would imagine it is registered as just a standard rifle lower. Can this not be changed and registered as a SBR now?

s2thalayer wrote:Well, i do have a pistol lower in my possession also, so i suppose technically i could just say it goes to that.

Excellent.... that helps avoid the legal problem.

Anyway, this lower has never been an SBR. I would imagine it is registered as just a standard rifle lower. Can this not be changed and registered as a SBR now?

The form 1 is for the making of a new, or converting of an existing firearm. You can make a pistol, or a rifle into a 'new' SBR.

Readers digest version:
Fill out form 1. 2 copies in duplicate.
Setup meeting with local law enforcement officer, get them to sign your forms
get and fill out ATF form 5320.20
Put both copies of form 1, and a copy of 5320.20 into an envelope with your $200 check, mail to ATF.
Wait 3 months to a year.
Get approved form 1 back.
Assemble your SBR.
Have fun.

Notes:
Do not assemble the SBR before you get the approved form 1 back.
If you fill out the form 1 as an individual, you and only you may have access/possession to the SBR. Your wife/buddy/brother/dad may not have access to the SBR with out you in immediate proximity.
Your approved form 1, or a copy of, must always accompany the SBR.

So all this engraving crap I'm hearing is BS?

s2thalayer wrote:So all this engraving crap I'm hearing is BS?

I gave you the short, simple, overview of the process.

Yes, you have to engrave your name, and city + state at the time you 'make' the SBR.

The name must be in a 'plainly visible location.

jdonovan wrote:

s2thalayer wrote:So all this engraving crap I'm hearing is BS?

I gave you the short, simple, overview of the process.

Yes, you have to engrave your name, and city + state at the time you 'make' the SBR.

The name must be in a 'plainly visible location.

Yeah i was thinking maybe i could just do that myself or something.

s2thalayer wrote:
Yeah i was thinking maybe i could just do that myself or something.

I'd suggest you use the services of a pro. Its not that much money, and they will make sure its done right, and doesn't look like a drunk with an electro pencil did the work.

jdonovan wrote:

s2thalayer wrote:
Yeah i was thinking maybe i could just do that myself or something.

I'd suggest you use the services of a pro. Its not that much money, and they will make sure its done right, and doesn't look like a drunk with an electro pencil did the work.

What are you trying to say, man!

haha. kidding. i know what you mean. Hey, thanks a lot for all the help. I appreciate it a lot. Might have saved me from going to the big house.

s2thalayer wrote: haha. kidding. i know what you mean. Hey, thanks a lot for all the help. I appreciate it a lot. Might have saved me from going to the big house.

Its not _too_hard to do the right things when it comes to items regulated under the NFA, but it sure is a heck of headache if you get 'em wrong.

If you've got some questions as you go through it, drop me a PM, I'll help where I can.

One other angle you may want to look into is setting up a Trust for the ownership of the NFA items... if you are going to do more than just one SBR. If you might get a MG, or a suppressor, or might want to allow access to more than one person, then trusts have some advantages.

jdonovan wrote:

s2thalayer wrote: haha. kidding. i know what you mean. Hey, thanks a lot for all the help. I appreciate it a lot. Might have saved me from going to the big house.

Its not _too_hard to do the right things when it comes to items regulated under the NFA, but it sure is a heck of headache if you get 'em wrong.

If you've got some questions as you go through it, drop me a PM, I'll help where I can.

One other angle you may want to look into is setting up a Trust for the ownership of the NFA items... if you are going to do more than just one SBR. If you might get a MG, or a suppressor, or might want to allow access to more than one person, then trusts have some advantages.

I saw something about that reading before. What all is involved in that? Do i just sign up for a Trust instead of individual or is there more paperwork?

s2thalayer wrote:I saw something about that reading before. What all is involved in that? Do i just sign up for a Trust instead of individual or is there more paperwork?

I'll quote myself =)

Its not _too_hard to do the right things when it comes to items regulated under the NFA, but it sure is a heck of headache if you get 'em wrong.

There is quite a bit of paper to create the trust. But acquiring new NFA items is a bit less external dependencies as there are no CLEO, photo, or finger print requirements. But there is more paperwork and record keeping on your side. Its not huge, I can do all the paper, and make copies in about 15 minutes.

If you do a trust incorrectly, and it is not valid, ATF can, will and does still approve the transfer. ATF's NFA examiners, are not lawyers, and not licensed to practice law in all 50 states. They have a very limited check list they use to make sure you haven't done something very obviously wrong. If your trust meets this limited check list they will approve the transfer but it does not make the trust legal.

Now you take possession of your new item, but the trust doesn't exist legally, so you are now in possession of a improperly transfered NFA item. It might be years before you discover this. But be sure that when it gets discovered there are likely to be large problems.

You really should hire a lawyer to draw up the trust, and use one who knows what the NFA is, and its implications for setting up a trust. This will likely cost $500-$1000.

My trust is almost 30 pages long.

While you might be able to get a generic form to establish a legal trust in our state, it will not provide instructions to beneficiaries, or trustees on how to conduct actions on behalf of the trust, and could get them into legal problems if they proceed improperly.

The downside of getting things wrong in the NFA area is large fines, long prison terms, and loss of the ability to own any firearm if you get convicted of a felony. All of that told me it was WELL worth my time to hire a GOOD NFA lawyer and ensure my paper work was in order.

Ok, now that im filling out the form i have some questions.

Do i have to be 21? im 20 and like 8 months. haha.

What do you usually put for "Reason for making firearm" I was just going to put "Sport"

I don't HAVE to have an FFL or Employer Identification Number do i?

Sorry for all the questions, but you seem to be a pro.

Do i have to be 21? im 20 and like 8 months. haha.

Must be 21

What do you usually put for "Reason for making firearm" I was just going to put "Sport"

NFA items are 'non-sporting' so that would be a bad choice. Collection, investment, and and all legal purposes is what you'd find on my forms.

I don't HAVE to have an FFL or Employer Identification Number do i?

No

Sorry for all the questions, but you seem to be a pro.

Not an expert, but I've done this a few times.

@s2thalayer - I'm no expert on NFA but recommend you seek one to see if there is a situation that requires remedy...and for the record, this board does not condone promotion of illegal activities or how to circumnavigate them once committed...not inferring there has been one just sayin...

zephyp summed it up just right.

Suggest you talk to a lawyer about your ownership of this firearm and consider working an NFA trust through them. You could contact a guy on this board named 'user'. He's a lawyer and I'm sure he would be happy to help clarify things for you.

I'm locking this thread from further comment.