Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Alright guys I was looking at some of the questions to the President that are being asked thru Youtube. Four of the highest rated questions(all about drugs) were:
"As a police officer, I saw how waging the war on drugs has cost a trillion dollars and thousands of lives but does nothing to reduce drug use. Should we discuss legalizing marijuana and other drugs, which would eliminate the violent criminal market?[Jakes note: It wouldn't eliminate it]".

That question was asked be a group know as Law Enforcement Against Prohibition(LEAP). To be honest I have always been against it, I don't know why really. It's more or less the gut reflex. I guess since I never have done drugs and won't in the future it's never appealed to me as a good idea. I always envisioned some stoner saying they want weed legalized. Seeing it proposed by someone not in it for drugs kinda gets me thinking. I'm going to be doing some research tomorrow, try and more or less make up my mind on the matter. I would like to know what are your thoughts on this?

THC, definitely. All the rest, less so.

Tell me what statistic you find for the % of those in jail for drug crimes. Freeing up that space for violent or other non-offenders, the reduced expenditures for DEA and all other non-federal drug enforcement and the increased revenue from taxation of a then legal product add up to a big case for ending marijuana prohibition at least. Add the cost of treatment programs, but those have proven benefits, as well.

To those who say maintain prohibition I ask simply this: Is it effective?

History: Dick Nixon commissioned the first "blue ribbon panel" that was tasked with studying all aspects of marijuana legalization (not all other drugs, I believe). The result was clear scientific and sociological advantages in ending marijuana prohibition.

Dick immediately took action 100% contrary to his own panel's recommendations and began the only war more riddled with economic waste and failure to produce desired results than the Vietnam non-War. Success!

At the federal level, absolutely. The Constitution permits the federal government to regulate (ban, really) possession of only two things, neither of which are narcotics, unless they want to argue that narcotics are intoxicating liquors, which is facially dumb. They have no authority. While a case can be made that they have the authority to regulate the importation and interstate transport of narcotics, it's clearly a losing game and they - and the public - would be best served by treating it like any other imported commodity. Customs bond, tariffs, etc. Domestic production should be unregulated, but unfortunately the Whiskey Rebellion settled the issue and they can tax things that people make even for personal consumption.

I think the states have the authority to do as their citizens wish with respect to prohibition or not. Attempting to legislate morality is a foolish proposition, but states can indulge in a certain amount of foolishness if their citizens will it. If you don't like it, you have the option of moving, advocating for change, etc.

The War on Drugs is one of the cancers killing American society. It may very well be too late already.

Yes, legalize.

I'd caution against taxing THC too heavily though. If it ends up still making more financial sense to buy illegally then why wouldn't people use the supply system already in place?

Definitely,, Just like cigarettes people will go out of their way to find the lowest prices and the Blackmarket for lack of a better term would continue to provide it//// 1000's of dollarsx worth of cigs leave VA every day in trunks and other stash places on the way to states where 80$ for a carton is not unherad of.. Weed wouldn;t be any different until possibly domestic growth could outstrip demand and force a price drop by flooding the market

The Liberterian in me says legalization is the way to go. But, the pragmatist in me says it would take a responsible society to do that. Just look at all the excuses/ blame that the media is attempting to pass around on the Arizona shooting. It was one person, who chose to shoot up a crowd around a Congresswoman. Other folks are stil trying to explain it, Hold the man responsible for his conduct. That is the only way we will improve as a country. Some folks touched on Cigarettes. Look at what is happening with them, they have been labeled as causing cancer for 46 years. People are still sueing the tobacco companies over it. In a society that expects people to be responsible for their actions, is that a smart thing to do or even allow? Then there is the health care debate, Americans purchase health insurance, do insurance companies get to charge more for the pot smokers? The research hasn't been done, I have heard a lot of Pot-heads say it is healthier than tobacco, it probably is just as bad for your lungs as tobacco. This is anecdotal and not scientific, but I know several people who developed Asthma as adults after they had been smoking pot heavily for a few years.

If Americans were expected to take responsibilty for their actions, YES do it. But since our society wants to hide from responsibility, NO it would be stupid.

Have any of you ever been to Amsterdam? I have. Pot is legal there. The bars there have green and white stickers on the window indicating that they sell. I spent some time in the "Red Light District" there, and the level of prostitution and drugs use there was insane (prostitution is legal as well).

My point is that the social experiment that is Amsterdam didn't impress me one bit. The people there are freaks (in multiple senses of the word).

Seriously - is that what we want here?

By the way - a buddy of mine was robbed while we were there. It was a slick robbery - no violence - just a hand slipped in his pocket and was gone. This is the only robbery I've ever witnessed, and it was in a country where drugs are legal and there's not supposed to be any crime.

Alcohol does just as much damage as drugs do and the various levels of government make money on alcohol. Why not do the same with drugs? If drugs were legalized, the politicians can declare victory in the War on Drugs, and start collecting the taxes.
If the fools doing drugs want to kill themselves with that trash, why not make some money for the betterment of society.
The one stipulation I'd have is to treat impaired drivers who cause accidents and deaths as criminals. Nobody forced the booze down thier throats, nor did any one pin their arm down and shoot heroin in the arms, now did anybody force coke up their noses, etc. They made the decision to drink, shoot, snort. As a result of that decision harm was caused, just like the person who makes a decision to join in a robbery and somebody gets hurt or killed.

Jim

Bad idea all around.

ProShooter wrote:Bad idea all around.

Not so sure it is a bad idea all around. The tax that would be applied to the legal sale of pot and all that would go with the manufacturing of it would be a bonus along with more room in our penal system. It may or may not increase the need for more law enforcement but it would most likely free up some law enforcement for other heavy drug crime like Heroin,Cocain etc.
Some of our border problems would lessen to some degree if pot was made legal and it was regulated like booze is now and a Lic. along with a age limit was mandatory. I am sure there will be many pros and cons to this as there have been for many years.
Bill

allingeneral wrote:Have any of you ever been to Amsterdam? I have. Pot is legal there. The bars there have green and white stickers on the window indicating that they sell. I spent some time in the "Red Light District" there, and the level of prostitution and drugs use there was insane (prostitution is legal as well).

My point is that the social experiment that is Amsterdam didn't impress me one bit. The people there are freaks (in multiple senses of the word).

Seriously - is that what we want here?

By the way - a buddy of mine was robbed while we were there. It was a slick robbery - no violence - just a hand slipped in his pocket and was gone. This is the only robbery I've ever witnessed, and it was in a country where drugs are legal and there's not supposed to be any crime.

Amsterdam is a poor example as it is too tiny of a sample. It is a destination for drug activity as well as sex tourism (like Thailand is/was for pederasts). It is more of a circus atmosphere than a regular society. I recently saw that drug use is in fact illegal in Amsterdam (as it is in all of Holland) but the law is not enforced. The rest of the country is very low on crime and drug use is very low.

A better example would be drinking in Germany or other places where there is no law against use by those under 21. They have much less problems with young people getting in trouble with alcohol than we do with out pilgrim-like attitudes.

We US Americans are also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww the worst in regards to teen pregnancy rates, and such. I think our culture, as such, is simply unable or unwilling to use personal restraint, responsibility or accountability. Unlike some of the above posters, I don't feel that the solution, as such, is more nanny state power grabbing, but LESS. You don't teach your children to act like adults by treating them as children.

I'm anti-prohibition. I just don't see why it's the governments role to tell me I can't enjoy a hash brownie or completely ruin my life with heroin. That's a personal decision for me to make and I will live with the consequences of my actions. I say we legalize marijuana, observe it's impact on our country and use it as a reference point to consider legalizing other drugs as well. I believe in freedom to make your own choices, but having responsibility for your actions, not having choices made for you and the government holding your hand and cleaning up your messes after you fail at something.

Marijuana is a "gateway" drug after all...

Well this is the proverbial "hornet's nest" on any forum I go.

While I don't condone it's use,
I see way more problems and deaths associated with "harsher" and legal drugs,ie...tobacco,alcohol,prescription pain meds,"bath salts"...etc.

The crime rate connected to it's use is lowest of drug related violence,and thefts.
Not to mention it is treated much differently by the Legislative and Judicial System.
The Stats are there.
It ties up LE, the Courts,and the Penal system.The Costs are staggering to say the least.
I say hell ya,get the heroin,crack,meth,and pain meds off the streets.

There are currently 14 states where "Medical Use" is already legal.
Hell,Commiefornia just this year almost passed legalization.(prop 19)
Live in one of these and tell your MD you have chronic (pun intended) pain and get a Med Scrip.
Under an ounce is a mere ticket if you don't have a scrip.

I have LEO buds that say this is a low priority by the department SOPs,and would rather face a "stoner" than a drunk,meth,or crackhead.
Fact of the matter is, a high percentage of LEO.Judicial,and the American populace support it's legalization.
http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php


Rick,
I think your reference to Amsterdam needs more clarification and is too "all in general" (pun intended)
It's a big draw for wealthy tourist's,to be preyed upon.
Sort of saying NYC or DC have high crime rates because Taxi's are Legal.Big cities have always equaled larger crime stats.
We all know it's because of restrictive weapons laws.
They have many nationalities in the populace,with many illegal immigrants as well.Poverty is high too.
I do agree on the high crime rate,but it has been steadily dropping.

Wholeheartedly agree with Sgt.Bill.

In all honesty,and FWIW,I tried it,just didn't do it for me,but I do not have the right to tell another what they can and cannot do to their body.
Tax,regulate,and fine it as necessary,just don't believe someone should face jail and big fines for it.

To much "Reefer Madness" mentality.
Someone gonna rob or kill you to score some weed? Not likely.

I know plenty of successful,intelligent,and prominent smokers of the evilness.
True story,
Back in my 20's I was dating a girl who was Babysitting...for a coke dealer.
We were watching TV and, a knock at the door.
Pennsylvania State Trooper.
She sold him an "8-Ball" and a "dime bag of weed".

The "war on drugs" needs to be the "war on crime"
I'm done,carry on.

It ties up LE, the Courts and the Penal system. The Costs are staggering to say the least.

Correction: it FUNDS those enterprises, as well as correctional/rehabilitation and pharmaceutical research and manufacturing incentives.

The war on [some] drugs has, on the whole, created an entire industry of interdependent agencies and crusades which, if the "war" was ended tomorrow would be forced to go out and get real jobs.

Millions would become unemployed overnight. Literally. Millions. Think about it.

Most drugs can also be grown on ones own property at a very limited cost, reduced even further if that growing was no longer hindered by the added cost of trying to keep the DEA from landing black helicopters on your roof and destroying everything you own so that they can force you to accede to their arbitrary dominion.

My two cents are as follows: Been there, done that and threw away the t-shirt! Marijuana is NOT a gateway drug, that's just something ugly people tell you.

davasmith wrote:Marijuana is NOT a gateway drug, that's just something ugly people tell you.

wylde007 wrote:

It ties up LE, the Courts and the Penal system. The Costs are staggering to say the least.

Correction: Your Government FUNDS those enterprises

Fixxed.

Good points mate.

"It" was meant to imply the war on [some] drugs and, like guilt by association, government.

Government which is funded by? Class?

Taxpayer dollars.