Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

there was a news story a few months back here in Lynchburg where an elderly man not from this area was killed by two juveniles downtown. There has been some debate about if this individual had a gun on him at the time, could he have used it legally. The other question i have, say a passerby saw this beating take place, could he have used his gun legally against them? and then last but not least...if the elderly man had not killed the men with his gun, but seriously wounded them, would he legally be in trouble?

Is this the incident you're asking about?

http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2010/s ... ar-530208/

I don't see any reason this man wouldn't have been justified in using a firearm to defend himself from two attackers, especially given his age. It's a shame that we have to ask this question posthumously.

Snazuolu wrote:... The other question i have, say a passerby saw this beating take place, could he have used his gun legally against them? and then last but not least...if the elderly man had not killed the men with his gun, but seriously wounded them, would he legally be in trouble?

I'd love an authoritative answer to the first question. There was a show not too long ago where they staged this exact scenario with actors & hidden cameras. Three "punks" pounding on an "elderly victim." I was eagerly awaiting the retired cop/Marine/Soldier to pop out his car, 1911 in hand and cause the actors to soil themselves. Sadly - NO ONE DID A THING until another elderly woman (not an actor) had at the punks with he hand bag!

In the second, I think the LEA would leave alone, but he'd most certainly have a civil suit brought.

reason i asked these questions is what use is there in carrying a gun if you cant use for fear of excessive rules the govt has in place? i wish there were an easy answer for all of them, but i would suspect that anyone except the thugs in this case woudl be found guilty. that is a problem to me..there was a lady robbed at gunpoint during the day at a walmart here, and yet the robber stole a womans purse. had anyone else had a gun and used it during that situation, i also think they would be the guilty ones. i hate to say this, but there are just too many rules pertaining to not only saving ones self from harm, but saving someone else from harm.

Snazuolu wrote:reason i asked these questions is what use is there in carrying a gun if you cant use for fear of excessive rules the govt has in place? i wish there were an easy answer for all of them, but i would suspect that anyone except the thugs in this case woudl be found guilty. that is a problem to me..there was a lady robbed at gunpoint during the day at a walmart here, and yet the robber stole a womans purse. had anyone else had a gun and used it during that situation, i also think they would be the guilty ones. i hate to say this, but there are just too many rules pertaining to not only saving ones self from harm, but saving someone else from harm.

Reminds me of some of my favorite movies...Death Wish...

Just ask your self "Is this persons life in eminent danger?"

If yes then respond. Take time and call the police. You may just want to make your presence know. That may scare them off. Or you may have to draw you weapon and keep at the low ready position to scarce them off. Shooting at all needs to be last ditch and only if you are truly %100 out of options to save the persons life. That is why a less-lethal option is important. Pepperspray and Tasers give you an intermittent response level.

If you don't feel his/her life is in danger then call police and say on seen until they arrive. You likely need to give a statement and be a witness. You can also give details over the phone to the 911 operator so the police office has all the details before arriving.

What is legal has nothing to do with it. It's about what needs to be done to save your life or the lives of others.

Jakeiscrazy wrote: Or you may have to draw you weapon and keep at the low ready position to scarce them off.

That smells like "brandishing".

Sorry but if you don't have the ball's to get involved and maybe have a poor outcome in the end then leave it alone and see if you can live with yourself.
What do you think a LEO has to go through on a regular basis that can be put into this type of situation with a radio transmission or several radio dispatches every day. And yes I have been sued and won the case on appeal after a verdict for the asswipe in Federal Court. And I would do it again if I had to.
Bill

SgtBill wrote:Sorry but if you don't have the ball's to get involved and maybe have a poor outcome in the end then leave it alone and see if you can live with yourself.
What do you think a LEO has to go through on a regular basis that can be put into this type of situation with a radio transmission or several radie dispatches every day. And yes I have been sued and won the case on appeal after a verdict for the asswipe in Federal Court. And I would do it again if I had to.
Bill

I don't think that anyone could have said it better. Thank you Bill!

SgtBill wrote:Sorry but if you don't have the ball's to get involved and maybe have a poor outcome in the end then leave it alone and see if you can live with yourself.
What do you think a LEO has to go through on a regular basis that can be put into this type of situation with a radio transmission or several radie dispatches every day. And yes I have been sued and won the case on appeal after a verdict for the asswipe in Federal Court. And I would do it again if I had to.
Bill

+1

SgtBill wrote:Sorry but if you don't have the ball's to get involved and maybe have a poor outcome in the end then leave it alone and see if you can live with yourself.

yeah, cant say I'd ever sleep right again if I knew I could help but chose not to. All it takes for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing after all. Sadly doing noting is he worst form of indifference as it is the easiest form to exhibit it.

Would I have started shooting at the little turds? No. I'm a bit soft around the edges these days, and loathe the idea of internet bragging, but punching the living crap out of one would work just as fine in neutralizing the threat to the victim.

As for the old man that got murdered and if he had been carrying should he have fired, really, better to be judged by 12 than carried by six eh? In a a true life or death situation, shoot first, think later. Sure hope I'm never in one.

what will really burn you is 1. the reason and 2. what one of the mothers had to say. for those who dont know the story, here in Lynchburg an elderly man was beat to death downtown by two black teenagers. i think they were 16, and the reason they punched this particular man, who was here on a trip to see his granddaughter get married, was one of the teenagers was trying to impress a girl. he said.. the next person i see, i'm gonna punch in the face. sadly it was the elderly man. both teenagers were caught and arrested of course, but the mothers OF COURSE said "ohh my boy wouldnt ever hurt anyone. i cant believe they did this."

this right here has the markings of lifelong criminals on it. there was outrage over something like this happening. what was really unbelievable, is ppl in the city were trying to defend downtown by saying its a good place to live and visit. Downtown lynchburg hasnt been good since the 80's. in the 90's, it was so bad, that they turned off the stop lights because what was happening so much were gangs were hi jacking cars that had stopped. it may be better than that today, but still downtown lynchburg contains a very bad element. i was banned for comments like this on our local newspaper forum, and if they get me banned here.. so be it.

when i mention bad element, its really code for poor black ppl.

i also want to add that many ppl i read online say oh i would use my gun at a last resort. seriously... thats fine for you, me personally..i'm fine going to jail for shooting two black teenagers out to impress some girl by punching me in the face. if nothing else, i would want to send a message that there are some still around who believe in making examples out of the bad guys.
*end rant here*

Palladin wrote:

Jakeiscrazy wrote: Or you may have to draw you weapon and keep at the low ready position to scarce them off.

That smells like "brandishing".

Possible charge of banishing vs letting someone be beat to death?

What's your choice?

Snazuolu wrote:when i mention bad element, its really code for poor black ppl.

Whenever you read about "youths" committing crime, they are always black. I learned this in a journalism class I took in college.

Also, if there is no picture of a criminal, they also almost certainly black in that case, but "youths" is always black.

Edit: I hadn't known the two murderers were black. Using lethal force against them could have been a hate crime, something else to consider before pulling the trigger.

Sorry but if you don't have the ball's to get involved and maybe have a poor outcome in the end then leave it alone and see if you can live with yourself.

There's a Jewish law that says you are "not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger" (Lev. 19:16)...the courts may not be in your favor but the man upstairs definitely will be.

Jakeiscrazy wrote:

Palladin wrote:

Jakeiscrazy wrote: Or you may have to draw you weapon and keep at the low ready position to scarce them off.

That smells like "brandishing".

Possible charge of banishing vs letting someone be beat to death?

What's your choice?

Should have clarified that - If the situation has deteriorated to where the gun comes out, the bullets start flying. No holding low ready, waving about, or threatening manner - eliminate the threat as quickly as possible. Just my opinion.

Kreutz wrote:I hadn't known the two murderers were black. Using lethal force against them could have been a hate crime, something else to consider before pulling the trigger.

You're dang right it's a hate crime. I'd hate to get my butt kicked by some punk(s), especially when I'm carrying! I'll take the chance of being charged with a hate crime. I'll even happily be sued by their worthless parents! In the end, I will still be ALIVE!

Yarddawg wrote:

Kreutz wrote:I hadn't known the two murderers were black. Using lethal force against them could have been a hate crime, something else to consider before pulling the trigger.

You're dang right it's a hate crime. I'd hate to get my butt kicked by some punk(s), especially when I'm carrying! I'll take the chance of being charged with a hate crime. I'll even happily be sued by their worthless parents! In the end, I will still be ALIVE!

1
Bill

Palladin wrote: Should have clarified that - If the situation has deteriorated to where the gun comes out, the bullets start flying. No holding low ready, waving about, or threatening manner - eliminate the threat as quickly as possible. Just my opinion.

O yeah, definitely. Preferably it doesn't go that way but definitely be physically and mentally ready as soon as you unholster, in fact you should be ready before that.

Yarddawg wrote:

Kreutz wrote:I hadn't known the two murderers were black. Using lethal force against them could have been a hate crime, something else to consider before pulling the trigger.

You're dang right it's a hate crime. I'd hate to get my butt kicked by some punk(s), especially when I'm carrying! I'll take the chance of being charged with a hate crime. I'll even happily be sued by their worthless parents! In the end, I will still be ALIVE!

Heh, I was being tongue in cheek.

Not sure how it works in VA, but in NY there were several whites who went to jail for defending themselves against black attackers. They get you on a weapons charge, disorderly conduct, plant drugs on you, maybe even an actual hate crime for the fun of it too. Whatever it takes to make an example.