Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Okay, I like in Fairfax County and just bought my first gun at one of the recent gun shows.

I was considering applying for a concealed carry permit... I don't plan on carrying my gun around everywhere, but I'd rather have a license to have it concealed rather than accidentally finding myself in a situation where for some reason I'm violating one of the concealment laws. Just seems better to have it than to not.

Here's my one hangup. Obviously my background check went through to purchase the firearm. I was looking at the application and it says:

"HAVE YOU, WITHIN THE THREE-YEAR PERIOD IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING THE DATE OF THIS APPLICATION, EITHER 1) BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF ANY DRUG-RELATED
CRIMINAL OFFENSE AS SET FORTH IN ARTICLE 1 (18.2-247 ET SEQ.) OF CHAPTER 7 OF TITLE 18.2 OR OF A CRIMINAL OFFENSE FOR THE ILLEGAL POSSESSION
OR DISTRIBUTION OF MARIJUANA OR ANY CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE UNDER THE LAWS OF VIRGINIA, ANY OTHER STATE, THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, OR THE
UNITED STATES OR ITS TERRITORIES; OR 2) BEEN CHARGED WITH ANY OFFENSE ENUMERATED IN THIS PARAGRAPH AND THE TRIAL COURT FOUND THE FACTS OF
THE CASE WERE SUFFICIENT FOR A FINDING OF GUILT AND DISPOSED OF THE CASE PURSUANT TO 18.2-251 OR SUBSTANTIALITY SIMILAR LAW OF VIRGINIA, ANY
OTHER STATE, THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, OR THE UNITED STATES OR ITS TERRITORIES?"

I bolded the part in that paragraph which caught my eye. I don't have any drug convictions, but two years ago (due to living with some closet drug addicts) caught a possession charge. I wasn't convicted, instead of fighting it out in court, I took a "251 disposition" (which I imagine is the 18.2-251 they refer to in that paragraph), did some community service, and had the case dismissed.

So none of my rights were taken away or anything, I wasn't convicted. Does anyone have enough knowledge of both these areas to tell me if I'm going to have a problem getting a CCP? Is this an automatic disqualifier? I'd imagine it isn't because they give you an additional page to explain...

"PART B CONVICTIONS (FOR ADDITIONAL CONVICTIONS, USE A PIECE OF PLAIN PAPER AND ATTACH)
DESCRIBE THE CHARGE FOR WHICH YOU WERE CONVICTED:

DATE OF CONVICTION:___________________
COUNTY, CITY AND STATE OF CHARGE: __________________________________
HAVE YOU RECEIVED A PARDON OR RESTORATION OF RIGHTS THAT INCLUDES YOUR FIREARM RIGHTS? YES NO
IF YES, ATTACH SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION."

Okay, so that's the "explanation page" ... but I don't get how I would fill that out. I don't have a conviction, the "pardon or restoration of rights" does NOT apply because my rights weren't taken away to begin with, but there is no "N/A" box to check. How would I even begin to fill this thing out?

Or do I just need to wait a year and file so I'm at the 3 year mark?

Also, if I submit the application and it gets denied, how long do I have to wait before filing again?

Thanks guys!

DT

O.K. I am not a lawyer. DH on this forum (handle "user".... maybe he will chime in) is an attorney. It is just my opinion... but it looks like you temporarily forfeited some of your rights when you accepted the 18.2 -251 disposition. I wouldn't think that it would necessarily hurt you to apply but it probably won't do you any good because it is my understanding that your application is reviewed and signed by a judge. If that is the case... the cops are not going to come by and knock your door down.... they will just deny your application until you meet the qualifications. I think ultimately it comes down to his/her discretion (this is a "shall issue state... if you meet the quals it is automatically yours....if you don't then you are at the discretion of the law) and the only thing you can really do is answer it honestly... or don't submit it.

As for Part B.. I wouldn't fill anything out because your situation is covered in Part A ( or I assume it is Part A).

Bear in mind, that in the world we live in today, that you do not have to be tried and convicted, you only need to be coerced into signing a piece of paper and ignorantly giving your rights away to the established.

I hope I am wrong.

Maybe I should have included some more of the text. The question, uh, in question (the part I bolded) ends with:

"IF YES, COMPLETE FORM 1 PART A OR B PAGE 2."

I pasted the applicable part of "PART A OR B" as the second quotation. Part A was on "pending convictions" of which I have none, so I left it out completely, and Part B was about previous convictions as you can see. Since because of my disposed court stuff I feel like I have to answer YES to that question, that means I'd have to complete part B as instructed... but Part B is ONLY about convictions and I know for a fact it wasn't a conviction.

Would it be wrong to include some sort of note about this on the app?

I also know for a fact that none of my rights were forfeited.

Would you happen to know the waiting period to file again if my application gets denied?

Also, if it did get denied and I had to sit before a judge at the appeal, what would be good reasons to present to him or her?

Here...

http://leg1.state.va.us/000/cod/18.2-251.HTM

That says that

"the court, upon such plea if the facts found by the court would justify a finding of guilt, without entering a judgment of guilt and with the consent of the accused, may defer further proceedings and place him on probation upon terms and conditions."

note the term probation

It also states

"As a condition of probation, the court shall require the accused (i) to successfully complete treatment or education program or services, (ii) to remain drug and alcohol free during the period of probation and submit to such tests during that period as may be necessary and appropriate to determine if the accused is drug and alcohol free, (iii) to make reasonable efforts to secure and maintain employment, and (iv) to comply with a plan of at least 100 hours of community service for a felony and up to 24 hours of community service for a misdemeanor"

Like I said... I am not an attorney. But I would say that the waiting period for acceptance is three years as set forth on the application. If you you want to precisely comply with what the form is asking you can answer yes to the question in form #1 then leave Part A blank because it uses the verbiage "convictions". I highly doubt that this will get you anywhere. That is just me.

P.S.... you say your rights were not forfeit.....when you see legalese that states "consent of the accused"... that means your rights were forfeit by you.

Correct, that's what I did. I'm well aware of the nature of a 251, and I specifically asked my attorney if it would effect any of my rights (voting, firearms, etc) and he implicitly said NO. I would just call him and ask but he's impossible to get a hold of.

If the 251 was such a disqualifier, why don't they just list it as a rejection? Why do they offer a place to explain your convictions and such?

I would think that it is because 251 is not necessarily grounds for automatic rejection. The application is giving you the opportunity to disclose, not reject yourself. That will flag an official to dig into your record, maybe learn details and make a decision.

By all means apply.... I'm just saying I wouldn't get my hopes up.

BTW...The reason you can't get a hold of your attorney is because you are not paying him anymore.

As you stated in the first place " you were NOT CONVICTED " you did some community service and YOUR case was DISMISSED. That means just that DISMISSED it never happend so you don't have to ans. any questions about it or put it on any application. File for your permit and leave all this crap blank as that is what it is BLANK.

No I am not an attorney but I have handled many types of legal forms over the years that I spent in Law Enforcement. Might be that User will chim in here.
Bill

I agree with Sgt Bill,..No conviction so need to worry about that 18.2.251 sentence.Send it in!

SgtBill wrote:As you stated in the first place " you were NOT CONVICTED " you did some community service and YOUR case was DISMISSED. That means just that DISMISSED it never happened so you don't have to ans. any questions about it or put it on any application. File for your permit and leave all this crap blank as that is what it is BLANK.

Gonna side with Sarge on this one.

"Dismissed" means "never happened". The instance remains of record (unless expunged, I think) and may be used if you were to be accused of a later offense, but don't quote me on that.

Well, 251 is the statute that allowed me to get my case dismissed, not a charge itself. And it might have been dismissed, but that's the exact type of dismissal they're referring to in that question.

You guys say "leave it blank" or "no need to worry about that 251 sentence" but that's exactly what I got. I had a 251, which is what they're asking about.

I'm fairly certain you could reword that question to say "Have you ever had a conviction dismissed on the basis of a 251"

I would wait the remainder of the 3 years and not get caught in the system.
If they interpret 251and dismissal differently, can they charge you with falsifying the application?

If you don't feel comfortable leaving that question blank, then write in exactly what happened. You won't be denied a permit by simply answering a question. The city or county is going to conduct a thorough background check regardless of your answer. Better to be 100% truthful then to risk what may be construed as a deceptive response.

IANAL but I would say if you had a 251 within the time asked on the application fill it out and explain what happened.

Go to http://www.courts.state.va.us/caseinfo/home.html and look up your case record. It will show what the actual dispasition of your case was.

Good luck

Actually it won't show on the online system. It will say "certified to grand jury" and to check circuit court records the the outcome.

The thing is, I just recently passed a clearance investigation for a position of public trust, they could see the charge but couldn't see the outcome/verdict so I had to get certified copies of the paperwork to show what happened.

A 18.2-251 finding is an automatic disqualification. See:

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry....

E. The following persons shall be deemed disqualified from obtaining a permit:
....
20. An individual, not otherwise ineligible pursuant to this section, with respect to whom, within the three-year period immediately preceding the application, upon a charge of any criminal offense set forth in Article 1 (§ 18.2-247 et seq.) of Chapter 7 of this title or upon a charge of illegal possession or distribution of marijuana or any controlled substance under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories, the trial court found that the facts of the case were sufficient for a finding of guilt and disposed of the case pursuant to § 18.2-251 or the substantially similar law of any other state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories.

You will have to wait three years from the date of the 18.2-251 ruling before applying.

wally626 wrote:A 18.2-251 finding is an automatic disqualification. See:

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry....

E. The following persons shall be deemed disqualified from obtaining a permit:
....
20. An individual, not otherwise ineligible pursuant to this section, with respect to whom, within the three-year period immediately preceding the application, upon a charge of any criminal offense set forth in Article 1 (§ 18.2-247 et seq.) of Chapter 7 of this title or upon a charge of illegal possession or distribution of marijuana or any controlled substance under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories, the trial court found that the facts of the case were sufficient for a finding of guilt and disposed of the case pursuant to § 18.2-251 or the substantially similar law of any other state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories.

You will have to wait three years from the date of the 18.2-251 ruling before applying.

This.

You got off easy on the drug charge, but it still is held against you when applying for a CHP. You have to wait 3 years.

Thanks guys. That was one of the most confusing sentences I've read recently, after looking it over a few times seems pretty clear that I have to wait.

Guess I won't be concealing any firearms soon.