Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Having once again found employment, I've decided my next purchase will be a rifle. Here's what I'm looking for: semi auto, versatile round, and preferably wood furniture. I'm looking to make a semi auto scout rifle. I want something thatwont break the bank to shoot, but could be used for hunting or home defense if need be. Here's what I'm looking at.

Ruger Mini 30 - $900 ish
I've heard Ruger barrels are very hit or miss. Some are great and accurate from the box. Some, not so much.

Springfield M1A Scout or SOCOM - $1400 ish
Beautiful, reliable, expensive. Good solid rifle, but really stretching what I can afford. I'd have to save up for awhile.

FN FAL - $???
This is sort of the wild card. From what I've seen you either pay out the ass for one, or take a risk with Century Arms QC.

SKS - $200 - $400
Really cheap option. Easy to find at a good price, easy to get parts for.

What do you think guys?

That's a pretty big range there. The Mini-30 is nice, but is not a good choice if you're using steel cased ammo. If I were in the market for another .30 semi-auto, I'd look for a Saiga in .308. I've seen them for about $600. Decent accuracy. One thing you have to watch for is the cost of magazines.

Jim

You might consider a AR in .308. I have a LR308 and am VERY happy with it. I like it better than the M1A1 (which I love dearly)
2nd you might consider an AK, I personally won't own one it's just a personal thing with me, but I will tell you they are good rifles

Drew, it was good meeting you at the Staunton (Hite Hollow) Shoot and Greet. You have actually listed two different size 7.62 rifles. In one group , the M1A, FN-FAL and the Big AR that Paliden mentioned. They fire 7.62 X 51 MM ammo (.308 Winchester). The other group fires the 7.62 X 39 MM (AK47 type) ammo, that group includes the Mini 30, the SKS and the AK family of weapons. It really wouldn't be fair to compare the two.

You didn't mention DSA as one of the FAL manufacturers, they have some models with used parts kits from Austria and South America for $1100-1200. One thing you have to learn about if you go the FAL route is learning about the difference between the Inch pattern and metric rifles. Another rifle out there is the HK 91/ G3 and it's knock offs. You already have a Moisin Nagant, There are some Dragunov type rifles being imported, but they are pretty big for the Scout Rifle concept.

I'm curious what you consider to be a scout rifle and how you intend to use it (or hopefully not use it). IIRC, Jeff Cooper created the original "scout rifle" concept and most of those rifles you have listed are too heavy and not inline with what he envisioned. That doesn't make them bad per se, but just not within the original concept. I bring this up because that terminology, with those rifles, is confusing as to what you are actually looking for. Search for Jeff Cooper and the Steyr Scout Rifle to see what the creator of the concept was thinking of.

http://www.steyrscout.org/general.htm


grumpy is correct, 7.62x51mm (aka .308Win more or less) is in a different league as the 7.62x39mm. Compare 7.62x39mm to the AR15 round 5.56x45mm/.223Rem. Compare .308Win to 30-06 or 7.62x54mm.

I've been deliberating the same thing. My friend just bought a WASR 10, and in the SHTF scenario of shared ammo, a Ruger Mini-30 is appealing (7.62x39). He also has a Moisin Nagant - I am unlikely to buy anything that requires 7.62x54R, even though the rifles are cheap.

The .308 Winchester/7.62x51 is appealing - other friends have a multitude of rifles. The AR-10 platform is not inexpensive, but it is familiar. The SOCOM II is also appealing, but pricey.

Right now, though, my eye is on this Mossberg 930 SPX. Must.... resist....

I know the Cooper Scout rifle was supposed to be a light weight bolt action with long range accuracy. However I don't see that being much use in most situations. So maybe calling it a "Scout" was wrong. How about a semi auto with a forward mounted scope?

I want something that I can afford to shoot often and is chambered in a round that can be used for hunting or defense in a SHTF type situation. I know these rifles are a tad heavy, but I don't think any of them (except maybe the M1A) is too heavy for what I want.

I'll have to look into AK's and Saiga's. I hadn't really considered them before.

And yeah, I know my price range is pretty wide, but I can afford it. But with the more expensive, the longer I'll have to save for it.

I would also suggest looking at a CETME or H&K G3 in .308 Win if you're going for a semi-auto. 20-round aluminum magazines are 97 cents at Cheaper Than Dirt ($1.97 for the steel ones). The delayed roller blowback action means there's no gas tube to have to clean, so cast bullets are a go. The CETME rifles with wood furniture can be had for $500; I don't know what the H&K's are.

My next .30 caliber rifle will most likely be an AR15 in 7.62X39. I was thinking AK type rifle but decided I'd stick with an AR type to keep from having to have additional spare parts. With a 7.62X39 the only odd spare parts would be the bolt/extractor and the magazines (if magazines are spare parts).

The 7.62X39 is pretty close to 30.30 power and there sure have been a lot of deer killed over the years with a 30.30 Winchester.

It won't be as cheap as an SKS but it will have 30 round magazines (unless I hunt with it, but I don't really intend to hunt with it), lots of AR type accessories/options available and I've read they are pretty darned accurte.

Face it, a .308 has greater range but how far can you really shoot here in this part of VA? Where I live 200 yds. would be an extremely long shot. Even the shooting ranges only go to 100 yds.

I've always been a .30 caliber guy for big targets/serious work. M1A, 03 Springfields, M1917 Enfields, M1 Garands but all of them are way overkill around here for soft targets.

I've got an Ak and its a very nice shooter. The only prob is the stock sights arent to my liking. Not really suitable for good accuracy or low light conditions needed for hunting. A small investment corrects that though and you can find decent Aks relatively cheap and they look like a fun gun to trick out.

Drewsifer wrote:I want something that I can afford to shoot often

Average FMJ .223/.308 is $0.40-$0.60 a round. More specialized hunting ammo and such is more like a $1/rnd. Is that cheap enough to shoot often? If not, your best bet is to look at Russian cartridges...unless you reload, but I didn't see that discussed as an option.

Drewsifer wrote:and is chambered in a round that can be used for hunting or defense in a SHTF type situation.

Hunting before SHTF requires at least a .243, so the standard AR is out. Post SHTF hunting? Use whatever you like. Suppressed .22LR to the head saves meat and doesn't attract unwanted attention. Most VA deer are taken at far less than 100 yards. The woods/brush is generally too thick to be shooting past that.

For SHTF/SD, most .30cals are overkill unless you are looking to engage past a couple hundred yards. Although in most SHTF situations, that is a bad idea IMHO.


The problem with SHTF, is that the optimized choice really depends on your plans and risks. If you want a better answer, you need to provide some of those details.

Without more information, I'd say buy a 18" barreled .308Win in either a M1A or AR10 clone. However, be warned that those usually use proprietary parts.

CowboyT wrote:I would also suggest looking at a CETME or H&K G3 in .308 Win if you're going for a semi-auto. 20-round aluminum magazines are 97 cents at Cheaper Than Dirt ($1.97 for the steel ones). The delayed roller blowback action means there's no gas tube to have to clean, so cast bullets are a go. The CETME rifles with wood furniture can be had for $500; I don't know what the H&K's are.

I happen to own a CETME. They're decent rifles, but, it's not recommended for commercial .308 ammo. Why? You will need a broken case extractor at some point. It tears up commercial brass. Same with the HK. And the fluted chamber means you can't reload that brass. If you buy a ton of steel cased Brown Bear ammo, great. It works very well with it. Same with NATO ammo. Quality is hit or miss with the CAI builds, so if you want a CETME, get a newer built one. And checking head space is not done the normal way. If you want more info on this rifle, PM me and I'll give you the scoop. And yes, magazines are dirt cheap for these, as they will take the G3 mags. I have over 30 of them.

Jim

Drewsifer wrote:How about a semi auto with a forward mounted scope?

Why forward mounted scope vs. the normal rearward mount?

I want something that I can afford to shoot often and is chambered in a round that can be used for hunting or defense in a SHTF type situation. I know these rifles are a tad heavy, but I don't think any of them (except maybe the M1A) is too heavy for what I want.

You will need to pick up and handle them and make a decision for you, what might be too heavy.

My preference is to the .308/7.62x51.

Suitable for any game animal in VA. Plenty of commercial loadings for nearly all uses. Cheap(er) surplus is also readily available for practice/plinking.

I happen to love the HK-91 as a 7.62x51 main battle rifle. You can get a copy of it from PTR-91 inc for about a grand.

I don't know that you could possibly go wrong with any M1 from Springfield armory.

FAL's are available, but a bit less common.

The AR platform has its advantages with modularity. Get a good quality lower, and then its kinda like barbie for men with a million upppers, and all the stuff you can add to the rails.

If you want more of a hunting rifle look... Take a look at the Browning BAR.

Lots of choices out there.

I've got to shot some, and held almost every rifle I listed. The only one I haven't is the FAL. I've shot SKS's before and liked them.

I may just build an AR in .308. Del Ton makes an Upper in 7.62x39mm. Guess it wouldn't stretch the budget too much for two different uppers

@jdonovan, I've just seen, and heard from a few people, that forward mounted scopes provide a better field of view for quick shots. I suppose really it doesn't matter.

The AR type rifle in .308 (7.62X51 NATO) will have a different lower receiver size (length) than an AR type rifle in 7.62X39. The 51 and the 39 are millimeters and the length of the cases. The .308 is longer than the AK round.

jrswanson1 wrote: I happen to own a CETME. They're decent rifles, but, it's not recommended for commercial .308 ammo. Why? You will need a broken case extractor at some point. It tears up commercial brass. Same with the HK.

There are two ways to deal with that. First, the use of NATO brass (Lake City brass is still very plentiful and cheap). Second, the use of the optional port buffer. The big issue with CETME-style designs (including the G3) is that the way they eject the brass tends to seriously cave in the case head. That's where the port buffer comes in; it reduces that problem big time. Lee reloading dies will take care of the few that still get bent in, because of the long taper of that die's expander pin.

jrswanson1 wrote: And the fluted chamber means you can't reload that brass.

Why is this? You have me curious.

I would think the fluted chamber would have a negative impact on the life of cartridge cases, that's just a SWAG, with uneven pressure on the case walls. That said I wouldn't let that stop me from owning a rifle I would like to own. Personally I would rather have an FAL than a CETME/ HK91 type rifle, but that is just me.

grumpyMSG wrote:I would think the fluted chamber would have a negative impact on the life of cartridge cases, that's just a SWAG, with uneven pressure on the case walls. That said I wouldn't let that stop me from owning a rifle I would like to own. Personally I would rather have an FAL than a CETME/ HK91 type rifle, but that is just me.

Any reason why? Or is just one of those things? Cause I understand that mentality!

After a quick search, it appears CETME's are going for around $600 on gun broker, while most FAL's are over 1k! I can afford it, it'll just take longer to get (probably six months as apposed to the 3 months for the CETME).

Sounds like a lot of people don't support the 7.62/308 intention for this rifle. Would switching to 5.56 help? I just don't think 5.56 is a good enough round to do it all.

Drewsifer wrote:

grumpyMSG wrote:I would think the fluted chamber would have a negative impact on the life of cartridge cases, that's just a SWAG, with uneven pressure on the case walls. That said I wouldn't let that stop me from owning a rifle I would like to own. Personally I would rather have an FAL than a CETME/ HK91 type rifle, but that is just me.

Any reason why? Or is just one of those things? Cause I understand that mentality!/quote]

The general reason that H&K/CETME brass is viewed as non-reloadble is not due to the flutes but due to the dent that generally gets applied on ejection.

To say the ejection on these rifles is violent is an understatement. My 91's generally throw the brass 10-20 yards forward and 10-30 yards to the right. Usually there is a dent that is about 1/3 the diameter of the case that kind of bends the brass about 15 degrees. With a port buffer the brass damage is greatly reduced and the percentage that is reusable is quite a bit higher.... not 100% but much better than the 5% with out the buffer.

After a quick search, it appears CETME's are going for around $600 on gun broker, while most FAL's are over 1k! I can afford it, it'll just take longer to get (probably six months as apposed to the 3 months for the CETME).

pay once, cry once. If you buy quality guns you will keep and shoot them for a lifetime.

Sounds like a lot of people don't support the 7.62/308 intention for this rifle. Would switching to 5.56 help? I just don't think 5.56 is a good enough round to do it all.

5.56 is not an acceptable hunting round in VA for anything but small game. IMO a good VA hunting battery is a .22 rimfire and a .308.

I'm a huge 308 fan.

If you can come out to the November shoot-and-greet; some of the members might be able to arrange some demos of likely candidate arms for you and you can get a chance to try them out for yourself.

CowboyT wrote:

jrswanson1 wrote: And the fluted chamber means you can't reload that brass.

Why is this? You have me curious.

Ah, I see you haven't seen a fired case from one of these. The chamber is fluted, so there are ridges on the spent cartridges which don't come out, even after resizing with a small base die. So you have long ridges that go from the top of the shoulder of the cartridge to about halfway down. The brass is now weakened, and I wouldn't use it for reloading.

And I do use NATO ammo and brass. There are several people who shoot at military ranges who pick up thousands of empties and sell them on VA Gun Trader.

Jim