Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

I went to Wal-mart in Central Park, F'burg tonight and they had TULA .223 for $4.95 per 20. I cleaned them out. They had 30 boxes in stock, and I just couldn't help myself. Now, most of you are probably aware that this is Russian, steel case, Berdan primed ammo. I've never shot any of it, but plan to take it to the range tomorrow to blow off some steam.

So...let's talk about it!

Well, Rick, I'll give ya' one thing, fer sure:
You've got plenty of steam now to blow off!!

Tula's the bottom end of Russian ammo, made on the oldest machines in the oldest plant. I like it well enough for blasting ammo - 7.62x39 and .45, makes it possible to shoot the Tommy more than once a year - but there are lots of complaints about performance in ARs. Works well in some but not others.

Hopefully yours will eat it okay.

My Armalite HATES this stuff!

Day one:
Loaded up a bunch of magazines and took a buddy of mine to the range with me. We got through about three magazines before the problems started. First, had a couple of FTF. Then, had a couple of FTE, The second FTE resulted in the extractor actually breaking off the lip on the casing! I had to punch a cleaning rod down the barrel to get the casing out. When it came out, I noticed what looked like tar stuck to the casing. I assumed that it was some type of protectant that they put on there to keep them from rusting.

I brought my AR home and field stripped it. I thought that perhaps it was a little dirty and that helped to cause the problems at the range. So, I cleaned it really well with Hoppes #9 and was sure to get the chamber spotless, then lightly oiled it with Rem Oil.

Day two:
Off to the range again today to give the stuff another chance. Couldn't get any of it to feed worth a crap. Gave up on it for a minute, unloaded a magazine manually (because I couldn't empty it the fun way!) then loaded it up with some 5.56 brass ball ammo. It ran through a 30 round magazine of the good stuff with no problems. Switched back to the TULA and had another casing stick and the extractor ripped the lip off of it.

I give up on the TULA and will fire nothing but Winchester and Lake City brass from this point forward.

Anyone have a rifle that likes TULA and want to buy around 500 rounds?

Diomed wrote:Tula's the bottom end of Russian ammo, made on the oldest machines in the oldest plant. I like it well enough for blasting ammo - 7.62x39 and .45, makes it possible to shoot the Tommy more than once a year - but there are lots of complaints about performance in ARs. Works well in some but not others.

Hopefully yours will eat it okay.

I don't run Russian ammo in my ARs (tried it once and hated life cleaning the thing!), but this makes me wonder. Given the general precision that American ARs are made too and the lack of much error in tolerances when chambering a barrel, how likely is it that it is not the guns, but rather the ammo lots? They could be having dimensional accuracy problems or their steel/coatings are inconsistant.

For example, I was shooting some 50BMG brass solids (VLDs) and noticed that my bullets were a few grains off of the manufacturers spec. All the bullets were spot on with each other, but just not the spec. After talking with the manufacturer, the spec is the average lot, but since brass is an alloy and even in the US the exact composition of the alloy varies lot to lot, the exact bullet weight also varies. This is high quality, US brass alloy which has pretty tight specs.

Given the quality of Russian steel, I'd guess that their steel is inconsistant. That could cause FTE. I.e. the steel or brass must "shrink" in order for extraction to occur. If the steel properties aren't just right, it won't shrink enough or quickly enough to extract. ARs are begining extraction while there is still significant pressure inside the "brass" (steel in this case). Ricks rifle would still have 10k+ PSI when this occured. Carbines are far worse. Scroll to the bottom to see the gas port pressure when the bullet just passes that point in the barrel: http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml

Granted, there is built in delay, but you get the point. In short, I'd put my money on Russian ammo before I blamed US made ARs. Some ARs work because some Russian lots are not as bad as others!

Rick, do you have any way to measure those cases? Somthing like this is useful for reloading: http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/conten ... Case_Gages

I like the Dillons because they are stainless steel. You can go cheaper with a Wilson or similar, but they can rust.

gunderwood wrote: Given the general precision that American ARs are made too and the lack of much error in tolerances when chambering a barrel, how likely is it that it is not the guns, but rather the ammo lots?

Wouldn't surprise me, though I'd think it would be more of an exacerbating effect from the fact that steel is a less than optimal material for a straight-walled case like in 5.56. Poor contraction coupled with funky materials and questionable dimensional specs leading to jams. Purely conjectural but it makes sense to my weak little brain.

That stuff is supposed to work well with Mini-14s. I may need to try some. Are the bullets steel or just lead and copper?

Jim

gunderwood wrote: Scroll to the bottom to see the gas port pressure when the bullet just passes that point in the barrel: http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml

Hey, that's a cool page and explains some things. Thanks, gunderwood!

jrswanson1 wrote:That stuff is supposed to work well with Mini-14s. I may need to try some. Are the bullets steel or just lead and copper?

Mindflayer just tried the Russian steel stuff in his brand-new Mini-14. Also, I tried it in Vahunter's slightly older Mini-14. Seems to work just great. BTW, CheaperThanDirt has about the best price going for .223 at the moment--$3.59/20.

I won't shoot the polymer-coated stuff in my Ruger SR-556 (AR) any more. I've had just a few failures to extract, but that was a few too many when I forget my cleaning rod and I am out in the hills. Wolf Classic Military and other of their line is also dirty. It makes cleaning my AR a PITA.

That all said, I did buy a lot of Silver Bear this week. Run like a champ in my Mini-14 today and was not as dirty as the Wolf. I am going to try it this weekend in the AR to see how well it does.

I have some of the Tula. If the zombies come and I have to shoot it, then I'll take the chance.

The Mini-14 should be just fine with the Tula.

And this is why I went with the Mini-14 action over that of the AR. I can feed it pretty much anything and it'll work fine.

allingeneral wrote:Now, most of you are probably aware that this is Russian, steel case, Berdan primed ammo.

Most of the Russian steel case ammo is Berdan primed. However, some of the Tula .223 is actually Boxer primed! Yes, that means reloadable, and someone over at the CalGuns forum did just that, with pretty good results.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... p?t=365356

I'm going to buy some of this stuff. At Cheaper Than Dirt prices, and reloadable to boot, that's a deal and a half even if you only get two reloads out of it.

The 7.62x39, sadly, remains Berdan primed.

Silver Bear is Berdan primed, IIRC, and is cheap cheap cheap and feeds well. I'll stick with that.

CowboyT wrote:

allingeneral wrote:Now, most of you are probably aware that this is Russian, steel case, Berdan primed ammo.

Most of the Russian steel case ammo is Berdan primed. However, some of the Tula .223 is actually Boxer primed! Yes, that means reloadable, and someone over at the CalGuns forum did just that, with pretty good results.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... p?t=365356

I'm going to buy some of this stuff. At Cheaper Than Dirt prices, and reloadable to boot, that's a deal and a half even if you only get two reloads out of it.

The 7.62x39, sadly, remains Berdan primed.

While steel can be reloaded, I advise against it. Steel becomes brittle...particularly the poor alloys those Russians use for cheap ammo. Brass work hardens too, but its failure modes generally are far less extreme. I would not want to be around a steel case head separation or other failure.

Just my two cents, YMMV.