Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

The link below will take you to a report published in 1989 by the FBI. I found it to be an interesting read.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

As I have stated many time's on this forum - Double tap - 2 in the chest and 1 in the head. The size of the projectile don't matter the placement of the shot to the head or neck will. If you have to take time to aim and not go on instinct you will most likely loose. The Bad Guy is not normaly trained in handgun use and shoot's on fear and instinct and hit's what they are shooting at and the poor smuck that is trained about sight alingment, breath control, trigger squeez and stance is the one taking too much time and end's up getting shot.

Look at what you want to shoot and shoot it- Combat Shooting Life saveing
Sight alingment, breath control,trigger squeeze Etc.- shooting for score or to impress someone
Bill

Bill - while I am NO expert - that's the drill I run my girl through every time we go to the range. I make her do it with the 9mm & the AR at 35' - which is a critical distance in our house.

Now - it is from stance and not from rest, so she's at an advantage, buyt she's still pretty darned good.

I've not done much shooting in 2-3 months and it shows with Mozambique drills (2 chest 1 head Bill to which bill refers). Must... get... more... range time!

SgtBill wrote:As I have stated many time's on this forum - Double tap - 2 in the chest and 1 in the head. .....Bill

Like most others fellas here, I'm not a lawyer or a LEO. But I am required to know the law and keep up with cases and results concerning firearms violations and suits because I'm a firearms instructor.
All that drivel being said, I don't think I would take the extra step of popping a perp in his skull after dropping him with two in his chest. That sounds like a perfect set up for the DA or plaintiff's attorney to eat me for deliberately going way past what was needed to stop the threat. Actually, I'd be concerned with what would happen with putting two in his chest. I think they'd hang me for deliberately killing him.

Jim wrote:... Actually, I'd be concerned with what would happen with putting two in his chest. I think they'd hang me for deliberately killing him.

Then why carry a firearm?

Because I believe I have a better chance of protecting myself with one than without one. If I have to empty the sidearm to stop the threat, I'll do what I must.
I apologize if I failed to make my point clear. I'll take the rap for the failure to communicate.

No worries, just wasn't sure what your plan was. It's good to worry about an overzealous DA and it's a side of things some people don't often think about (although I hope in our neck of the woods, that's less common!). I think the key to the Mozambique drill that some people miss is that you assess the first two hits - if the first two center mass didn't stop the threat, the third is meant to take out the threat for good. I'd have no issues trying to make absolutely sure the third shot stops the threat for good if the first two center mass didn't stop the threat.

I found the story about Hornady's Critical defense round interesting. I now know never to buy that round. If I can shoot thru glass or sheet metal, what good is it? Suddenly the old ball ammo looks better and better.

CCFan wrote:No worries, just wasn't sure what your plan was. It's good to worry about an overzealous DA and it's a side of things some people don't often think about (although I hope in our neck of the woods, that's less common!). I think the key to the Mozambique drill that some people miss is that you assess the first two hits - if the first two center mass didn't stop the threat, the third is meant to take out the threat for good. I'd have no issues trying to make absolutely sure the third shot stops the threat for good if the first two center mass didn't stop the threat.

Now, THAT I COMPLETELY agree with.
I cause problems for my wife because I'm so literal. I get that from reading contract specs for thirty years. It says this and it don't say that.
Sgt. Bill, if I came across wrong, forgive me, Sir. I meant no disrespect.

Jim wrote:The link below will take you to a report published in 1989 by the FBI. I found it to be an interesting read.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

This report needs to be taken with a grain of salt. First, the report was put out in 1989, HP bullet design has made leaps and bounds since then. Second, everyone has an agenda and this is no different. The FBI no longer pushes maximum penetration (as this paper does), but rather suggests a balance of penetration and expansion. This paper is just one volly in the heavy/slow/penetration vs light/fast/fragmentation/expansion debate.

The most important aspect of that paper is the tactical and wounding mechanism discussion.

Jim wrote:

CCFan wrote:No worries, just wasn't sure what your plan was. It's good to worry about an overzealous DA and it's a side of things some people don't often think about (although I hope in our neck of the woods, that's less common!). I think the key to the Mozambique drill that some people miss is that you assess the first two hits - if the first two center mass didn't stop the threat, the third is meant to take out the threat for good. I'd have no issues trying to make absolutely sure the third shot stops the threat for good if the first two center mass didn't stop the threat.

Now, THAT I COMPLETELY agree with.
I cause problems for my wife because I'm so literal. I get that from reading contract specs for thirty years. It says this and it don't say that.
Sgt. Bill, if I came across wrong, forgive me, Sir. I meant no disrespect.

No problem Jim. I would like to state for the record that if you are unable to go beyond the 2 in the chest then you could have a problem. For one thing if you think that you can assess the first 2 too the chest DON'T bet your life on it. It is not like the movies where the blood starts to flow outside at the entry wound right away and people do not drop right to the ground with chest shot's. NOW what do you do . You follow up the first 2 shot's with a 3rd. shot to the head that will make the perp hit the ground.

Rule of thumb. Shoot the perp untill he or she is no longer a threat even if you have to reload and the HELL with the DA. and get me as an expert witness.
Bill

SgtBill wrote:..... Rule of thumb. Shoot the perp untill he or she is no longer a threat even if you have to reload.....Bill

EXACTLY!
I misunderstood your original response and, again, I apologize for that. Now that I understand your intent, I completely agree.
And I thank you for your understanding.

I've shot enough groundhogs with high velocity .223 soft points and deer with soft point .308 rounds to know (not read, not heard, seen the game drop, seen the holes, and in some cases recovered the bullets from the insides of the animals) that even the same bullets from the same box with the same powder/primers/rifle/range do not, repeat, do not, always do the same thing when the hit meat and bones.

Overkill works. Bullet placement is more important than bullet type. Nothing is a death ray (it may eventually die but what's it gonna do before it does stop moving/breathing?)

If its a threat (which the deer and groundhogs weren't ) shoot it till it's no longer a threat. Anything else is taking risks your loved ones will, sooner or later, not appreciate.

Have a good one.

Sgt. Bill may have heard this one, "Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6."

M1A4ME wrote:I've shot enough groundhogs with high velocity .223 soft points and deer with soft point .308 rounds to know (not read, not heard, seen the game drop, seen the holes, and in some cases recovered the bullets from the insides of the animals) that even the same bullets from the same box with the same powder/primers/rifle/range do not, repeat, do not, always do the same thing when the hit meat and bones.

Overkill works. Bullet placement is more important than bullet type. Nothing is a death ray (it may eventually die but what's it gonna do before it does stop moving/breathing?)

If its a threat (which the deer and groundhogs weren't ) shoot it till it's no longer a threat. Anything else is taking risks your loved ones will, sooner or later, not appreciate.

Have a good one.

Sgt. Bill may have heard this one, "Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6."

+1

Body Armor + 2 in the centermass = threat still coming at you
third shot in the head = no more threat

Taggure wrote:Body Armor + 2 in the centermass = threat still coming at you
third shot in the head = no more threat

Unless you are shooting 5.7x28. But that's the other thread...

I've seen Bill and his son in action on targets, and it's one rolling sound...

Bill - "He was still moving"

Lawyer " I guess so, he hadn't hit the ground yet!"

Glen, you are a funny man. HE WAS STILL MOVING" SO TRUE,SO TRUE
Only a 8541 would think like that.
Semper Fi!
Brother Bill

SgtBill wrote: Only a 8541 would think like that.

Bill - you sound way too much like the guys over at WTBN

"But he was still moving (falling) foward!"

Cheers
CW