Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

The Obama administration is set to notify Congress of plans to offer advanced aircraft to Saudi Arabia worth up to $60 billion, the largest U.S. arms deal ever, and is in talks with the kingdom about potential naval and missile-defense upgrades that could be worth tens of billions of dollars more.

The administration plans to tout the $60 billion package as a major job creator—supporting at least 75,000 jobs, according to company estimates—and sees the sale of advanced fighter jets and military helicopters to key Middle Eastern ally Riyadh as part of a broader policy aimed at shoring up Arab allies against Iran.

The talks between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia have been widely known for months, but many new details are only now coming into focus. These include the number and type of aircraft involved, how much the Saudis intend to spend in an initial installment, and the ongoing negotiations to also upgrade the kingdom's navy and missile defenses.

The $60 billion in fighter jets and helicopters is the top-line amount requested by the Saudis, even though the kingdom is likely to commit initially to buying only about half that amount.

In a notification to Congress, expected to be submitted this week or next, the administration will authorize the Saudis to buy as many as 84 new F-15 fighters, upgrade 70 more, and purchase three types of helicopters—70 Apaches, 72 Black Hawks and 36 Little Birds, officials said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09 ... -advances/

In the words of General Anthony Clement McAuliffe: "NUTS!"

TheGodfather wrote:

The Obama administration is set to notify Congress of plans to offer advanced aircraft to Saudi Arabia worth up to $60 billion, the largest U.S. arms deal ever, and is in talks with the kingdom about potential naval and missile-defense upgrades that could be worth tens of billions of dollars more.

The administration plans to tout the $60 billion package as a major job creator—supporting at least 75,000 jobs, according to company estimates—and sees the sale of advanced fighter jets and military helicopters to key Middle Eastern ally Riyadh as part of a broader policy aimed at shoring up Arab allies against Iran.

The talks between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia have been widely known for months, but many new details are only now coming into focus. These include the number and type of aircraft involved, how much the Saudis intend to spend in an initial installment, and the ongoing negotiations to also upgrade the kingdom's navy and missile defenses.

The $60 billion in fighter jets and helicopters is the top-line amount requested by the Saudis, even though the kingdom is likely to commit initially to buying only about half that amount.

In a notification to Congress, expected to be submitted this week or next, the administration will authorize the Saudis to buy as many as 84 new F-15 fighters, upgrade 70 more, and purchase three types of helicopters—70 Apaches, 72 Black Hawks and 36 Little Birds, officials said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09 ... -advances/

In the words of General Anthony Clement McAuliffe: "NUTS!"

In this day an age, US airframes mean next to nothing. The real question is which electronic packages/variants are they getting.

Talks are also underway to expand Saudi Arabia's ballistic-missile defenses. The U.S. is encouraging the Saudis to buy systems known as THAAD—Terminal High Altitude Defense—and to upgrade its Patriot missiles to reduce the threat from Iranian rockets. U.S. officials said it was unclear how much this package would be worth.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 25050.html

Though the Journal article published Monday didn't name the F-15 variant being offered, it did say the jets being sold would be "ideal" for fighting Yemeni rebels, which would likely make it the F-15E.

The F-15E variant, designed for air-to-surface attacks, was successful in wiping out Iraq's radar and missile systems during the 2003 U.S. invasion.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-pla ... 2010-08-09

THAAD and support RADARs, F-15Es (knowing this president he may even allow the proposed SE variant loose), etc... NUTS!!!

Edit: Haven't found anything on the Apache variant yet.

We have been selling weapon systems to the Saudis for decades. Advanced weapon systems to them is no new thing.

They're probably just trying to keep up with the Jones', err, Israelis.

Mindflayer wrote:We have been selling weapon systems to the Saudis for decades. Advanced weapon systems to them is no new thing.

True, but usually the stuff we sell to them isn't as good as what we sell the Israeli's. Apparantly this new equipment will be on par or slightly better than what the Israeli's have until they take delivery of the F35.

A few years ago we sold the Saudis AWACs gear that really irked the Israelis. Also made some of our NATO allies a bit peeved.

gunderwood wrote:

Mindflayer wrote:We have been selling weapon systems to the Saudis for decades. Advanced weapon systems to them is no new thing.

True, but usually the stuff we sell to them isn't as good as what we sell the Israeli's. Apparantly this new equipment will be on par or slightly better than what the Israeli's have until they take delivery of the F35.

I don't know if that is true. My understanding is that the Abrams M1A2 got into the hands of the Saudis before we ever got it. Essentially, Congress didn't want to fund the A2 program, but the Saudi's did. So they got the new tanks and our forces only began to get them once we needed replacements for the A1s. I could be wrong as I heard about this many years ago.

Nothing new. Both Bushes did it, Clinton, Reagan, etc. The Saudis are the "buddy pals" of US Government officials. And we all know why.

C'mon, Gov. Brian Schweitzer, run for President! You'd be way better than the ones we've had for the last 30 years....

CowboyT wrote:Nothing new. Both Bushes did it, Clinton, Reagan, etc. The Saudis are the "buddy pals" of US Government officials. And we all know why.

C'mon, Gov. Brian Schweitzer, run for President! You'd be way better than the ones we've had for the last 30 years....

I had to look him up. From Wikipedia:

Schweitzer is against gun control[8] and a vehement critic of the REAL ID legislation.[16]

Schweitzer signed in to Law the Montana Firearms Freedom Act on April 15, 2009 which became effective October 1, 2009. The law exempts firearms made and kept in Montana from Federal firearms regulations. It applies mostly to non-military types of firearms, along with ammunition and accessories such silencers,[17] provided that these items are manufactured in the state, and do not leave the state.

He's also a huge fan of American Energy Independence. (Caps mine)

He's RCC. I would be surprised if Americans would be willing to vote for a "papist" again.

We've been doing this (selling high tech stuff to Saudis) since around 1964. Check out a little known outfit called the US Military Training Mission (USMTM)...a great assignment if you can get it by the way....

And Garrett (gunderwood) is spot on. Airframes mean nothing....its the payload we send with them...almost all of our fighter/bomber aircraft have different "blocks" which produce configurations for different countries and applications. Saudi isnt the only place we sell weapons. The downside is we dont really make any money and it places an overhead on us for maintenance, etc...I am not a big fan of selling to these guys. Makes no sense when they make no bones about demanding (loudly) that we stay the eff out of their country...the irony is that the USMTM staff (housed in Saudi Arabia) get all of the best things from the West...including liquor, pork, etc...the Saudis get it all too merely by driving across the causeway from Dhahran to Bhahrain...if you want to see Saudis indulging in decadent Western culture then thats the place to be...but I say far too much...fargen bastages...

zephyp wrote:We've been doing this (selling high tech stuff to Saudis) since around 1964. Check out a little known outfit called the US Military Training Mission (USMTM)...a great assignment if you can get it by the way....

And Garrett (gunderwood) is spot on. Airframes mean nothing....its the payload we send with them...almost all of our fighter/bomber aircraft have different "blocks" which produce configurations for different countries and applications. Saudi isnt the only place we sell weapons. The downside is we dont really make any money and it places an overhead on us for maintenance, etc...I am not a big fan of selling to these guys. Makes no sense when they make no bones about demanding (loudly) that we stay the eff out of their country...the irony is that the USMTM staff (housed in Saudi Arabia) get all of the best things from the West...including liquor, pork, etc...the Saudis get it all too merely by driving across the causeway from Dhahran to Bhahrain...if you want to see Saudis indulging in decadent Western culture then thats the place to be...but I say far too much...fargen bastages...

We sell arms all over the place and since they are our stuff, that means it is practically true by definition that they are advanced. However, the electronic payloads we sell vary greatly. We create special packages for certain countries, almost no one gets our latest and greatest. The Saudis have gotten modern frames of various weapon systems for quite some time. That is nothing new. What would be new is if they were sold the latest electronic packages.

E.g. I forget the sources, but when the F22 first rolled off the assembly line, war games/simulations showed it had a kill ratio against the F-15 of 30-50:1. However, later games/simulations (after the same AESA radars were fitting experimentally to F15s) the kill ration dropped to 5-15:1. The stealth features of the F22 help, but stealth doesn't make you invisible...it simply means you need a better radar. There is also a proposed Silent Eagle upgrade which would add some stealth to the F15. Some have argued that with the addition of AESA and the SE upgrade that the advantage the F22 has over the F15 is virtually null in void.

If the Saudis get the latest and greatest package and not a reduced capability package, that is a huge change in US armament sales to them.

Mindflayer wrote:We have been selling weapon systems to the Saudis for decades. Advanced weapon systems to them is no new thing.

Everyone knows that we've been selling military equipment to other countries for a long time. That doesn't mean I've ever agreed with them selling it to shady countries. It was nuts before. And yes, I know the whole "we have better equipment than them so it doesn't matter" argument, but it really does matter. Muslim aggression is increasing every day. It might not be long before we're in the middle of WWIII with the muslim world. Even if our equipment is better, that's still 84 F-15's, 70 Apaches, 72 Black Hawks and 36 Little Birds we have to worry about taking down and will most likely cause some American casualties.

NickW wrote:Old News since WWII, Everyone does it.

Since when does that make it right?

TheGodfather wrote:

NickW wrote:Old News since WWII, Everyone does it.

Since when does that make it right?

Its not right by half; however, we find ourselves in the unenviable position of having to bend our knee to the Saudis because we need their oil and we need them to be a strong impediment to their enemy the Iranians. We also acquiesce to the Chinese because they hold our national debt, China need not fire a shot to destroy the U.S. all they have to do is call in the Treasury Bonds they hold and our whole economic structure would fold overnight, as would theirs because they depend on us buying their goods but, China is currently working feverishly to rectify that and they can do it because they have complete totalitarian rule combines with a free market, where as we are a Democracy that can’t seem to agree on anything. Actually IMO we are a Plutocracy but I digress, sorry.

It’s a complicated world we live in, we’ve boxed ourselves into this position because we have made bad choices ever since the end of WWII, but what’s done is done, my bitching it’s going to change it. We are to the point now that there are no easy solutions, the American people will have to make great sacrifices in order to turn things around, like paying their bills and living within their means. But most of all we need to prosecute the white collar crooks that have put us in this mess, they rape are country’s wealth and be-damned the consequences and you know why… because, there are no consequences for them, only for us.

Sorry for the rant, I just found out that I am one of the 5000+ DOD contractors that Robert Gates is laying off in Tidewater and I’m pissed. Therefore if selling a few Jets helps keep some poor sod employed for a few more years, like the song says… “who am I to disagree.”

NickW wrote:Sorry for the rant, I just found out that I am one of the 5000+ DOD contractors that Robert Gates is laying off in Tidewater and I’m pissed. Therefore if selling a few Jets helps keep some poor sod employed for a few more years, like the song says… “who am I to disagree.”

Very sorry to hear about that, but I feel that you would even more pissed if your son ends up getting killed in combat by one of those jets.

We need to wake up and realize what's coming.

NickW wrote:
... the American people will have to make great sacrifices in order to turn things around, like paying their bills and living within their means.

Sorry for the rant, I just found out that I am one of the 5000+ DOD contractors that Robert Gates is laying off in Tidewater and I’m pissed. Therefore if selling a few Jets helps keep some poor sod employed for a few more years, like the song says… “who am I to disagree.”

Nick, why must you hate America? (sarcasm alert!)

Sorry to hear about things in Tidewater - from what I've gathered from family I have down there, parts of the area have been in somewhat of a decline for several months now.

Nick - I'm not in Tidewater but send the resume this-a-way!

"If we do not hang together, we shall certainly hang alone."

TheGodfather wrote:

NickW wrote:Sorry for the rant, I just found out that I am one of the 5000+ DOD contractors that Robert Gates is laying off in Tidewater and I’m pissed. Therefore if selling a few Jets helps keep some poor sod employed for a few more years, like the song says… “who am I to disagree.”

Very sorry to hear about that, but I feel that you would even more pissed if your son ends up getting killed in combat by one of those jets.

We need to wake up and realize what's coming.

Would you rather have them buying our F-16s where we "control" what they get, the training, and the maintenance OR something from someone else where our only role is to sit back and watch...I know you dont like it and neither do I but thems the reality of the world we live in...

zephyp wrote: Would you rather have them buying our F-16s where we "control" what they get, the training, and the maintenance OR something from someone else where our only role is to sit back and watch...I know you dont like it and neither do I but thems the reality of the world we live in...

Making the largest U.S. arms deal ever with the Saudis is not exactly what I would call "control".