Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Mexican Drug Cartel Allegedly Puts a Price on Arizona Sheriff's Head

"PHOENIX - He's been at the center of the discussions and controversies surrounding illegal immigration enforcement in Arizona for quite a while.

On the day parts of Arizona's immigration law, SB 1070, went into effect, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio is in the news for another reason: there's a price on his head - allegedly offered by a Mexican drug cartel.

The audio message in Spanish is a bit garbled, but the text is clear.

"It's offering a million dollars for Sheriff Joe Arpaio's head and offering a thousand dollars for anyone who wants to join the Mexican cartel."

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/im ... o-07292010

Well, at the rate which the Mexicans appear to be killing themselves (15 more today, I hear!), this might be all for nothing...

// all for carpet bombing the border towns and giving US ranchers living on the border .50 cal sniper rifles and a license to hunt

chfaunce wrote: all for carpet bombing the border towns

If you have any info on those "carpet bombings", please provide a link or something so we can be "enlightened".

chfaunce wrote:giving US ranchers living on the border .50 cal sniper rifles and a license to hunt

And here I thought guns are used to protect our borders......silly me.

You might want to get your snark detector repaired.

chfaunce wrote:You might want to get your snark detector repaired.

My troll detector works just fine.

Yeah, but the snark detector? Not so much. Seriously, guy, what's your deal? Someone steal your sense of humor?

chfaunce wrote:Yeah, but the snark detector? Not so much. Seriously, guy, what's your deal? Someone steal your sense of humor?

No, my little Rosie troll. After all of the whacko nonsense I've heard from you, I'm prone to think you actually do believe the crap you previously said and the smiley was just an attempt to hide your little trollish face.

I could be wrong but I would think the cartels would be smart enough not to hit a Law Enforcment type here in the states .. It would bring a ton of heat their way .. Scary part is is if they did would Obama and his boyfreind Holder retaliate or go hide in the closet together??

VBshooter wrote:I could be wrong but I would think the cartels would be smart enough not to hit a Law Enforcment type here in the states .. It would bring a ton of heat their way .. Scary part is is if they did would Obama and his boyfreind Holder retaliate or go hide in the closet together??

No, the scary part is that I think they absolutely would do it. Even scarier is that we have a pretty significant gang presence that's already here, though I will say that Fairfax Co has done a pretty decent job of cracking down on them. Am I talking cartel stuff here? No, but we have a good number of MS13 here, and they are pushing product among other things. And, unfortunately, as these people are pushed out of the bigger areas (like Fairfax), they're pushed into smaller, surrounding areas.

If I were Sheriff Joe, I'd keep an eye out - gotta feel for his family, too.

Short of simply going into Mexico and laying waste to them all (which would probably come to a huge cost, and is probaby entirely unrealistic), I think the solution is really to legalize the sale and distribution of that which they're selling. Take away their income. Prohibition isn't really effective.

Alright guys, I'm going to give the posters the benefit of the doubt here that no one is suggesting that it would be alright to "carpet bomb" or "hunt" people living on either side of the border.

I would suggest that anyone who feels differently on the subject should find another forum to post it on.

OakRidgeStars wrote:Alright guys, I'm going to give the posters the benefit of the doubt here that no one is suggesting that it would be alright to "carpet bomb" or "hunt" people living on either side of the border.

Understanding that sarcasm doens't always translate in the written word, to clarify: no, I was not suggesting we carpet bomb Tijuana and snipe Mexicans as they cross the Rio Grande.

OakRidgeStars wrote:Alright guys, I'm going to give the posters the benefit of the doubt here that no one is suggesting that it would be alright to "carpet bomb" or "hunt" people living on either side of the border.

I would suggest that anyone who feels differently on the subject should find another forum to post it on.

+1, OakRidgeStars. That kinda junk isn't cool.

We are so quick to point fingers yet we beat up on politicians who do the same...point fingers you ask? Why yes. We point the finger in the wrong direction wrt the illegal drug problem. The problem is we the people who push that crap up their noses or otherwise. Cut off the demand and the drug cartels will go away.

Now does that mean I think they arent part of the problem...not at all. But I believe in attacking problems at the source...otherwise its like taking off a head to cure a headache.

Case in point: crime...we contend most crime occurs in gun free zones...and I agree so the solution is eliminate gun free zones and crime goes down...same for drugs...lets point the finger to the root of the problem...how do we make the cartels go away...eliminate demand...but that is easier said than done.

Btw, we "almost learned" in Vietnam that carpet bombing doesnt work in certain situations...even if we eliminate the cartels they will quickly be replaced. How many hoods do you think are standing in line to be part of a big time cartel...

zephyp wrote:We are so quick to point fingers yet we beat up on politicians who do the same...point fingers you ask? Why yes. We point the finger in the wrong direction wrt the illegal drug problem. The problem is we the people who push that crap up their noses or otherwise. Cut off the demand and the drug cartels will go away.

Now does that mean I think they arent part of the problem...not at all. But I believe in attacking problems at the source...otherwise its like taking off a head to cure a headache.

Case in point: crime...we contend most crime occurs in gun free zones...and I agree so the solution is eliminate gun free zones and crime goes down...same for drugs...lets point the finger to the root of the problem...how do we make the cartels go away...eliminate demand...but that is easier said than done.

Btw, we "almost learned" in Vietnam that carpet bombing doesnt work in certain situations...even if we eliminate the cartels they will quickly be replaced. How many hoods do you think are standing in line to be part of a big time cartel...

Yes, eliminating demand is the only real solution. However, it is also something the government is incapable of doing. They always end up causing more problems trying to eliminate demand than they fix. If the USSR couldn't shut down their black markets, what makes you think anyone can?

The misuse of drugs is a moral problem, until you harm another. The government wielding the sword can only solve the second problem (after you have harmed someone). The first problem can only be solved by changing the heart of man and the sword can not do that.

Making them legal does not solve the moral problem, the market will still exist because demand exists. However, it does solve some of the unintended consequences from trying to eliminate supply (AKA the war on drugs). If the drugs become unprofitable to grow in Central/South America, ship to the US and distribute, they go out of business. "They" is the cartels and drug dealers (often gangs). They have lots of overhead because they must back everything up with firepower, but the profit margin is so high that they are able to purchase whole armies, RPGs, top notch air planes/radars, boats, submarines, etc. and still turn a profit! This is crazy. Yes, a lot of these people commit other crimes like human trafficking, rape, murder, etc., but imagine how much easier it would be to apprehend them if they weren't millionaires (billion?) with private armies.

Violence is an inherent part of a black market. Since the black market is illegal by definition, you can not go to the authorities to enforce even something as simple as a contract like the white market. The rule of law essentially becomes non-existent in a black market. I.e. those who participate have effectively removed themselves from the rule of law because they can not participate in the justice system. Power hates a void and something will fill it. Black markets quickly degrade into "might makes right." Force and consequently violence becomes the answer to settle all disputes.

zephyp wrote:We are so quick to point fingers yet we beat up on politicians who do the same...point fingers you ask? Why yes. We point the finger in the wrong direction wrt the illegal drug problem. The problem is we the people who push that crap up their noses or otherwise. Cut off the demand and the drug cartels will go away.

Regardless of how we might feel about those who do use drugs (from whatever standpoint, clinical, moral, etc) I don't see "cutting off demand" as a realistic expectation. I believe there will always be a demand. The solution I think will be to figure out a way to make the sale and distribution less profitable for the cartel. Hit 'em in the wallet! Yes, part of the problem is the user (demand). But another part of the problem is prohibition, and the cartels make incredible profits because of that prohibition. And why shouldn't they? The risk is pretty incredible, as well! The other real challenge is that in some cases the Government has not yet found a way to control production and distribution (as they have done with alcohol and tobacco) and therefore has really not found a way to effectively cut out the black market. And, of course (conspiracy theory alert!), the Government has not yet found a way to make their buck, which is really why I think certain things are still 'illegal'.

I view today's problems with illegal drugs as a direct parallel to our problem with illegal liquor during the Prohibition Era. Granted, the current challenge is probably wider spread and a little more complex. But, I think the same basic principles apply. Just my 2¢.

chfaunce wrote:

zephyp wrote:We are so quick to point fingers yet we beat up on politicians who do the same...point fingers you ask? Why yes. We point the finger in the wrong direction wrt the illegal drug problem. The problem is we the people who push that crap up their noses or otherwise. Cut off the demand and the drug cartels will go away.

Regardless of how we might feel about those who do use drugs (from whatever standpoint, clinical, moral, etc) I don't see "cutting off demand" as a realistic expectation. I believe there will always be a demand. The solution I think will be to figure out a way to make the sale and distribution less profitable for the cartel. Hit 'em in the wallet! Yes, part of the problem is the user (demand). But another part of the problem is prohibition, and the cartels make incredible profits because of that prohibition. And why shouldn't they? The risk is pretty incredible, as well! The other real challenge is that in some cases the Government has not yet found a way to control production and distribution (as they have done with alcohol and tobacco) and therefore has really not found a way to effectively cut out the black market. And, of course (conspiracy theory alert!), the Government has not yet found a way to make their buck, which is really why I think certain things are still 'illegal'.

I view today's problems with illegal drugs as a direct parallel to our problem with illegal liquor during the Prohibition Era. Granted, the current challenge is probably wider spread and a little more complex. But, I think the same basic principles apply. Just my 2¢.

Demand is not some random variable. It is literally the desires of mankind.

You think the government has cut out the black market for alcohol and tobacco? I guess moonshine and cig runners don't exist? The punishment is much lower than with illegal drugs and the illegal translation is also much easier, thus profits are lower as the demand is easily met. Government regulation causes black markets to even be possible. I.e. if something isn't illegal it can't be part of a black market by definition.

When I mentioned demand, I should have been more clear: I was referring only to the demand for illegal drugs, not demand in general. How variable the demand is for an illegal drug at any given time, I have no idea. My suggestion was merely that a demand existed, and a demand was being met through some means.

Has the Government cut out the black market for tobacco and alcohol entirely? No, and I don't think that will ever be the case. People made their own then (alcohol), people make their own now. And, hey, if it weren't for those moonshiners, we'd never have had NASCAR! Look on the bright side. But, seriously, is the production, distribution, and consumption of alcohol prohibited by regulation? No. Why not? What changed in 1933, when the Prohibition Era came to an end? Sudden change in morality? A change in ethics?

"During the Great Depression, President Roosevelt and the American people decided to put an end to the "noble experiment" of prohibition. In 1919, those you fought for prohibition really believed it would help with the problems of poverty, crime, and other moral vices. However, crime only increased during the 1920s, and by 1930 many organizations sprung up to campaign for the repeal of prohibition. During Franklin D. Roosevelt’s campaign of 1932, he ran on a platform that included repealing prohibition. The American people, especially women who had once as a group advocated prohibition, now saw its repeal as a chance to lower crime and even help the struggling economy. The 21st Amendment was fully ratified on December 5, 1933 and prohibition ended."

Source: http://www.footnote.com/page/93132113_t ... _19191933/

As the saying goes, those who can not remember their history are dooomed to repeat it...

You are correct, though - as I believe I eluded to, the relationship between amount of risk and amount of profit is relatively direct. How do we make the act less profitable? Speaking of profit:

http://www.drugscience.org/Archive/bcr2/cashcrops.html

It's not just Mexico! How long before Uncle figures out a way to make his cut?

Sorry for the threadjack, everyone - I know this has nothing really to do with Sheriff Joe.