Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Is it possible to concealed carry a pistol that has been turned into an SBR?

For example, say I were to take a Springfield XD, go through the legal procedures, and end up with this:
http://www.ematactical.com/viewProduct. ... &catID=376

You're going to need a bigger holster

So someone better with the law then I am can answer you legally. I'm just trying to figure out physically how you would conceal it? Definitely not possible in shorts and t-shirt. I'm thinking really just during the winter time when it is so cold outside you have to wear a heavy coat.

So I am curious how you were planning on concealing it? I would love to see/read some of your ideas.

If I am not mistaken, you can conceal carry a handgun, but not a rifle. Once it is a Short Barrelled Rifle, I don't think you can carry it even if you converted the barrel back. The firearm (receiver) is now a registered rifle.

hahaha, okay, I was unclear I think.

The conversion is basically a detachable stock. You can convert it back into a pistol in about 5 seconds.

@gunderwood: I thought that short barrel rifles have to meet certain criteria. Otherwise it's classified as an AOW. If you register it as an SBR will it stay as an SBR for the rest of the gun's life regardless of what you do to it?

Keeping in mind what Gunderwood said, why would anyone even want to carry something like that.
Bill

UpAllNightDude wrote:@gunderwood: I thought that short barrel rifles have to meet certain criteria. Otherwise it's classified as an AOW. If you register it as an SBR will it stay as an SBR for the rest of the gun's life regardless of what you do to it?

I don't know anything about that kit other than I wouldn't think twice about not buying one. There are AR pistols or carbines that would be vastly superior to a stocked glock. That isn't a new idea and there is a reason it didn't catch on. Why have a glorified pistol that is the size of a carbine? Unless it is purely a range toy, I don't think it is a good idea.

I assumed you were correct that it would become a NFA SBR. I don't think you can un-NFA something. Diomed?

gunderwood wrote: I assumed you were correct that it would become a NFA SBR. I don't think you can un-NFA something. Diomed?

Once you stick a shoulder stock on any firearm, it becomes either a rifle or a shotgun depending on the bore (whether it's a short-barreled whatever depends on how long the barrel is, of course). Whether it can go back is something of a theological discussion; if you talk to NFA Branch, they will say all you need to do is remove the stock and it'll be a pistol again (and no longer subject to the NFA if it was a SBR). Ask Firearms Technology Branch, and they will say once it's a rifle, it's always a rifle. Since it's probably someone from FTB who'd be testifying at the trial, I'd go with their take on it.

That's federally. Concealed carry is a state issue. The statute specifies this: "'Handgun' means any pistol or revolver or other firearm, except a machine gun, originally designed, made and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand." What that means as a practical matter is probably in case law, which I don't get into. I once asked the VSP about carrying an AOW shotgun - a smoothbore pistol, to be precise - and their only response was to quote the rules on carrying machineguns. So whether it's kosher in VA, I can't say. Someone who knows how to look through case law would have to answer that one for sure.

I would speculate that the handgun is "originally designed, made and intended" to be a handgun, so if it's been turned into a SBR, but had the stock removed, it's still a handgun for state purposes. Purely my speculation though.

Diomed wrote:

gunderwood wrote: I assumed you were correct that it would become a NFA SBR. I don't think you can un-NFA something. Diomed?

Once you stick a shoulder stock on any firearm, it becomes either a rifle or a shotgun depending on the bore (whether it's a short-barreled whatever depends on how long the barrel is, of course). Whether it can go back is something of a theological discussion; if you talk to NFA Branch, they will say all you need to do is remove the stock and it'll be a pistol again (and no longer subject to the NFA if it was a SBR). Ask Firearms Technology Branch, and they will say once it's a rifle, it's always a rifle. Since it's probably someone from FTB who'd be testifying at the trial, I'd go with their take on it.

That's federally. Concealed carry is a state issue. The statute specifies this: "'Handgun' means any pistol or revolver or other firearm, except a machine gun, originally designed, made and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand." What that means as a practical matter is probably in case law, which I don't get into. I once asked the VSP about carrying an AOW shotgun - a smoothbore pistol, to be precise - and their only response was to quote the rules on carrying machineguns. So whether it's kosher in VA, I can't say. Someone who knows how to look through case law would have to answer that one for sure.

I would speculate that the handgun is "originally designed, made and intended" to be a handgun, so if it's been turned into a SBR, but had the stock removed, it's still a handgun for state purposes. Purely my speculation though.

I would agree with the tech branch too. It would be like a AR SBR. Put a different upper on it and technically for that period of time it isn't a SBR, but the receiver is still a registered item. Doesn't matter what the ATF tells me, I'm keeping the paper work with it.

Now whether we should have to jump through these hoops or not is another story.

I checked with ATF when I was going to build a SBR and this is what I was told. Like Gunderwood said once the reciever is registered as a SBR it' doesn't matter what barrel length you put on it it's still in ATF's mind a SBR. But you can send ATF some more money and paper work to remove the SBR status. I scrapped the SBR idea when I realized I'm more practical then tactical.

Vahunter wrote:But you can send ATF some more money and paper work to remove the SBR status.

You can, but you're wasting your time and money (I don't know why you'd send them money, it hasn't gotten to the point they have to be bribed). As far as they're concerned, all you have to do is put a long enough barrel on it and it's not a SBR. The letter of the law agrees. If you want the NFRTR updated to reflect the change, you can do that if you want, though it's not a requirement. It'll take a few years to get it done (low priority) and it doesn't remove the gun from the registry. The only practical effect is if you wanted to put a short barrel on it again you'd have to pay another $200.

Interestingly, it happens frequently with destructive devices. People will pull the tube off the cup of a mortar, sell the cup as a regular old firearm, and the new owner will register it and install a new tube. The same firearm gets registered over and over again and ATF doesn't bat an eye.

Diomed wrote:

Vahunter wrote:But you can send ATF some more money and paper work to remove the SBR status.

You can, but you're wasting your time and money (I don't know why you'd send them money, it hasn't gotten to the point they have to be bribed). As far as they're concerned, all you have to do is put a long enough barrel on it and it's not a SBR. The letter of the law agrees. If you want the NFRTR updated to reflect the change, you can do that if you want, though it's not a requirement. It'll take a few years to get it done (low priority) and it doesn't remove the gun from the registry. The only practical effect is if you wanted to put a short barrel on it again you'd have to pay another $200.

Interestingly, it happens frequently with destructive devices. People will pull the tube off the cup of a mortar, sell the cup as a regular old firearm, and the new owner will register it and install a new tube. The same firearm gets registered over and over again and ATF doesn't bat an eye.

as far as registering it over and over again and paying for each new owner. The ATF ain't worried about the weapon or destructive device as much as they are about knowing WHO own's it and WHERE is it kept so that they can be put on their watch list if need be.
Bill