Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

I am a brand new shooter, having bought my first handgun a month ago. I am going to get my CHP and want to train with the weapon I intend to carry. I own the Springfield XDM 9mm with the 3.8" barrel, and some folks say they carry concealed with zero problems, even at my size (5'8", 155#). Other people recommend a slimmer gun, or a more compact gun, or - well, it seems if you ask 20 people, you get 40 different answers.

My questions:

1) Is anyone of lighter build carrying an XDM concealed? My Google-fu usually shows guys a lot bigger than I am.
2) It's been recommended that if I do carry multiple guns to stick with the same type as a newbie. With that in mind, I've been looking at the XD 9mm subcompact, but it seems the thickness of the grip would cause printing. Thoughts?
3) I also looked at the Ruger SR9C, and it's definitely thinner. The trigger, though, did not seem as nice, which leads me back to the concept in point #2. Is carrying a slightly thinner gun the trick, or does a good holster cover up the difference?

Side note - I did buy a Crossbreed SuperTuck based on pretty consistent feedback. It has not arrived.

The guys at NoVA Armament (http://novaarmament.com/) were very patient today as I tried multiple handguns multiple times. Thanks, guys!

Just wear a loose fitting t-shirt with a long tail

Mindflayer wrote:The guys at NoVA Armament (http://novaarmament.com/) were very patient today as I tried multiple handguns multiple times.

I've heard nothing but good things about NoVA Armament.

I have a Sig P226 R As I only recently got my CHP all I have been doing is within my home. I also have a SuperTuck. Some thoughts...

Given the right clothing you'll conceal fine. Buy your shirts a bit larger (pay attention to brands - a large in one brand is different from a large in another brand).

At first, I disliked the SuperTuck. However, it was pointed out to me at SGT Bill's that I was using the wrong belt. A BDU belt is wide & slick. After finding a thinner leather belt, it does OK. BTW - BDU are your best buddy with CC. You can get them in plain khaki & black and no one seems to notice. I have not tried 5.11 gear yet.

I got the SuperTuck w/out the combat cut - BIG mistake on the Sig. The decocking lever gets hung up on re-holstering all the time.

I've been reading a lot about this - I am a voracious researcher once I want to know about something - and the feedback seems to be:

1) Carry the XDM at a very aggressive angle, so the grip is nearly perpendicular to the waist. This will reduce printing.
2) The 9mm SC may be a good idea for shorts and tshirts days, esp. in the humid Virginia summers.
3) The general consensus it to buy the XD 9mm subcompact and the XDM 45 ACP and make sure to post pictures of give range reports.

I went with option 3 - I bought the XD 9mm subcompact at NoVA Armament. I also received my Crossbreed SuperTuck today so just waiting on my CHP (paperwork submitted 2 weeks ago) and more training.

I have a question for you.
Do you really feel the need to have a CHP to carry your gun?

t33j wrote:I have a question for you.
Do you really feel the need to have a CHP to carry your gun?

Need and want are two very different drivers. I am well aware I could open carry, but I do not want to do that. I may do so when I up in the hills of WV, but I prefer to remain a lot lower profile when in urban areas.

I couldn't agree more. Why advertise to the BG that you have a gun for him to steal? Why advertise to a group of punks who want to prove their "manliness" by challenging the guy with a gun? Better, I think, to just get a CHP and be more subtle.

I recently saw some "wallet holsters" for semi-autos like the Kel-Tecs and the Ruger LCP's and such. They exactly fit the profile of a typical wallet and let you shoot right through the holster. I like that idea for hot summer days like we have now.

CowboyT wrote:Better, I think, to just get a CHP and be more subtle.

I'm even thinking of removing the NRA sticker on my back window. On one hand, it does tell anyone that the driver is a gun owner, and possibly armed, which may deter some idiocy. On the other hand, it also announces that fact.

Yes, I think sometimes about all the stickers on my truck...I've read too many stories about situations where it gets someone in trouble....a couple I recall where a traffic altercation escalated to road rage. The guy with an NRA sticker got followed home and confronted in the parking lot of his apartment...he did nothing but argue...the other guy called the police and said the guy pulled a gun on him...so the guy is still in the parking lot fiddling with his truck when the police pull up...and as luck had it he was carrying...not good...his best strategy would have been to call the police as soon as he saw the guy pull in behind him...the other which I dont really think should be required was to not have the sticker to begin with...the guy who followed him bet he had a gun and was right...

Which brings up another point...I often like to carry something other than the standard big black pistol...why...ok, officer, can the man describe the gun I supposedly pulled on him...yes, it was a big black pistol...so when you pull out a tiny .25 or a chrome .45 the accusation is hopefully thwarted...

Few reasons which I'll bring quickly up before I run off to work

Open Carrying a firearm is a deterrent. Both immediately and for anyone else who may think about wanting to do something which would require its use. VCDL Board Member Dennis O'Connor can tell you about that. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sou ... carry+bank

To surprise someone with your gun is not a defensive tactic; the element of surprise is an offensive one. It may also make your gun a little bit harder to get to. CC does have the virtue of letting you decide if you want to use it instead of being forced to in some situations with which you are confronted.

There *are* a few places I'd CC but there aren't many.

to quote PVC in a recent VA-Alert, ""Open carry is more comfortable, especially in the hot summertime. It allows fast access to the handgun in an emergency. It can deter crime by a criminal seeing the gun and deciding to not go forward with a crime, keeping the gun owner from even having to draw the gun (lots of such cases documented, including within VCDL membership). HOWEVER, you had better know the gun laws and know if you are in a "no carry" zone. Although quite rare, you might be asked to leave private property. IF YOU ARE ask to leave, do NOT demand that the property be POSTED! Just politely leave.

Concealed carry can allow a handgun to be presented in a way that is a surprise to criminal who has begun an attack, which, although generally slower than open carry, can be a tactical advantage in many cases because it allows YOU to decide whether or not to present your firearm. It is very handy if you have inadvertently wandered into a location where you aren't supposed to have a gun. Since the gun is hidden, no one knows that you goofed up. It also avoids the problem of carrying on private property where open carry is prohibited."

Back later

CowboyT wrote:I couldn't agree more. Why advertise to the BG that you have a gun for him to steal? Why advertise to a group of punks who want to prove their "manliness" by challenging the guy with a gun? Better, I think, to just get a CHP and be more subtle.

I recently saw some "wallet holsters" for semi-autos like the Kel-Tecs and the Ruger LCP's and such. They exactly fit the profile of a typical wallet and let you shoot right through the holster. I like that idea for hot summer days like we have now.

as to the second part of your post, you may need a tax stamp for that......as too the first part, i've got better things to do with my time then argue with you about taht

t33j wrote:Few reasons which I'll bring quickly up before I run off to work

Those are all valid points. That said, my points are still equally valid.

I know by your posts that you are a younger man. That's important as I continue. Let me clear that I am not denigrating the enthusiasm of youth, just reflecting how years can change your view.

It is very true that a gun in open carry is a deterrent in and of itself. However, it also draws attention to you. I have lived in some very rough spots and very often the last thing you want is attention. I am a military brat and was taught to fly under the radar and blend into the local communities as much as I could, especially in places where Americans were being blown up. I've lived in some crime-riddled areas here in the USA where a gun at your side is a deterrent to some and an instigator to others. You may be able to draw a gun more quickly from a holster in OC, but you can't draw faster than someone who already has a gun pointed at you.

It's also about attitude. I've been "approached" for all my belongings before and have walked away from every incident with my health and possessions intact. Those situations may have escalated right off the start if they saw I had a gun.

I currently live in NoVA where the crime rate is pretty low. It comes down to different mindsets - I believe it's better to be beige and focus your attention on everyone else, than be shiny and the focus of everyone's attention.

That all said, you should do what is comfortable for you. There was a time in my life that I probably would have been fine openly carrying, and in the right situation I still would.

Mindflayer wrote: 3) I also looked at the Ruger SR9C, and it's definitely thinner. The trigger, though, did not seem as nice, which leads me back to the concept in point #2. Is carrying a slightly thinner gun the trick, or does a good holster cover up the difference?

I looked at the XDM and SR9c as well. I agree that the XDM has a really nice trigger.
My friend carries a Glock 17 while wearing a pretty tight shirt. He has an M-tac holster. Since his cant is not too aggressive, he moves it toward the small of the back when in public. While sitting down, he must slide it more to the side for comfort. So, it can be done even without a baggy shirt.

+1 for BOTH! the main thing being is to bring a firearm...

I think that you need to be able too, and familier with OC and CC...and no situation will be covered by every occurance...you also SHOULD be familier with shooting off hand, while lying down, and at an angle, with the sun in your eyes, sweating your butt off, trying to hold onto a slippery grip with one eye never leaving your target... Do you pull your piece and then find cover? do you find cover and then pull your piece? how hard is it to get that firearm from CC while squatting? running ? with one hand? with your off hand? do you carry the exact same way every time, locked and loaded? Loaded, but chamber empty...have you actully tried to rack the slide while running at, or from something or someone??? ever tried to load you peice while walking, let alone running? what about a FTF?? every try to clear a stovepipe jamm while walking, ok, now try it terrified and running,,,nope, me neither...

how many have tried to hold your pistol on target for just 3 mins...that suxer can get heavy, can't it...can you think of a situation where you might just have to keep your firearm trained on a target for a period of time...

The world does not hang static or stationary pinnned to fence post...waiting for you to take your aim, steady your breathing, and the ability to focus on the rear sight, now the front sight, and back to the rear...looks good...squeeze, ..harder..squeeze...BOOM!

Be aware, look with your eyes, think with your head, if you think something is amiss, it is...

granted: These are some extreme examples, but the fact that we carry means that we are considering these extreame situations and WE WANT to have the abililty to do something other than roll over and die in those extreme situations...so as we discuss OC vs. CC, put me down for a "C" for carry...and get out there and try to put yourself in and think and act through (with an unloaded weapon) the physical and mental actions that you would have to go through to get that piece out, under control, and to bear, ready to bark...
now adjust the senario to make it even harder,...

and again...

and again....

and again......

AND NOW, think of the borderline situations where you might just want to draw out your piece, BUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTT discretion says "LEAVE IT HOLSTERED".... what do you do? what is the threashold for bearing your weapon? when can a firearm be a hinderence to bringing a situation to an equitable close?

I am not saying that i have the answers to these questions for you, let alone myself, but it is something that i give alot of thought to, as carrying, OC or CC, is one thing, bringing your beast to bear, is wholly another ... but also understanding that THERE are situations that it certainly calls for your firearm to be in your hand.

Think, consider, contemplate, the various situations, your reactions, and the ramifications BEFORE you find yourself in the middle of it, ... and as it we has been said before, SA, it all starts with SA...

and SA starts with "What is my status?"...

(E-sermon over)

Carry On,... Do Good Things!

Mindflayer wrote:
I currently live in NoVA where the crime rate is pretty low. It comes down to different mindsets - I believe it's better to be beige and focus your attention on everyone else, than be shiny and the focus of everyone's attention.

So MindFlayer are you saying you wouldn't go dressed like this around NOVA?


Would that be too shiny? Yes I am being facetious here.


Back to you original question of what to carry. I would say carry what is comfortable to you. If it is comfortable than you will carry it. If it is not comfortable you will find excuse after excuse not to carry it. Try different combinations of weapons and holsters. Find out what your buddies carry and see if they will let you try it out. You have probably already met Wei at NOVA Armament, but that guy is awesome and knows his guns. The one thing that I have read and will concur is once you find your style, stick with it. That way it is all muscle memory if you find yourself neck deep in alligators you don't have to think, does my gun have a thumb safety, is it at the small of my back, is it in my cross draw shoulder holster. And as BluemontGlock said, think about those odd ball scenarios you might find yourself in. It sure won't be like at the range where you can find time to train that perfect posture for target practice. If I was being fired on, I sure wouldn't be standing up with zero cover. I want something between me and those bullets.

cigarmanva wrote:

CowboyT wrote:I couldn't agree more. Why advertise to the BG that you have a gun for him to steal? Why advertise to a group of punks who want to prove their "manliness" by challenging the guy with a gun? Better, I think, to just get a CHP and be more subtle.

I recently saw some "wallet holsters" for semi-autos like the Kel-Tecs and the Ruger LCP's and such. They exactly fit the profile of a typical wallet and let you shoot right through the holster. I like that idea for hot summer days like we have now.

as to the second part of your post, you may need a tax stamp for that......as too the first part, i've got better things to do with my time then argue with you about taht

Did I miss something? Tax stamp for what?

Mindflayer wrote:It is very true that a gun in open carry is a deterrent in and of itself. However, it also draws attention to you. I have lived in some very rough spots and very often the last thing you want is attention. I am a military brat and was taught to fly under the radar and blend into the local communities as much as I could, especially in places where Americans were being blown up. I've lived in some crime-riddled areas here in the USA where a gun at your side is a deterrent to some and an instigator to others. You may be able to draw a gun more quickly from a holster in OC, but you can't draw faster than someone who already has a gun pointed at you.

I've taken the complete opposite approach. I live in an area of Norfolk where it is not uncommon to hear gunshots 2-3 times a week. One night, I counted 21 in less than a minute. I'm not sure I know of any criminals that would be instigated by the sight of an armed target... then again I don't really hang out with that crowd. I figure they'll move on to easier prey.

Mindflayer wrote:It comes down to different mindsets - I believe it's better to be beige and focus your attention on everyone else, than be shiny and the focus of everyone's attention.

While OC does cause some looks and occasionally some expressions like this , an openly carried gun goes unnoticed more often than I bet you'd guess.

Mindflayer wrote:That all said, you should do what is comfortable for you.

zephyp wrote:Which brings up another point...I often like to carry something other than the standard big black pistol...why...ok, officer, can the man describe the gun I supposedly pulled on him...yes, it was a big black pistol...so when you pull out a tiny .25 or a chrome .45 the accusation is hopefully thwarted...

If you keep multiple firearms on you, you get to thwart the "He was carrying a big shiny .45!" by pulling out whatever you want...

t33j:

I lived in Newport News in the neighborhood where those cops were shot back in the 90s. My brother was carjacked down in Hampton/Newport News. Hell, back when I lived there, Norfolk cops thought NN was worse than Norfolk (not sure if that is still true). The criminals open carried (Mexican carry) and not being of the right neighborhood and sometimes race made you target - and gods help you if you also had a weapon.

Now to the present - it's all about situation awareness. There are many places in NoVA where an open carry won't get you a second look. People will usually assume you are some sort of law enforcement, especially in this post 9-11-2001 world. However, there are other places it just seems to me too much hassle to have to deal with someone calling the police and some LEO not knowing the law. Again, a lot of my attitude comes from my upbringing as a brat that spent lots of time in hostile environments.

I'll leave it to folks like you and the VCDL die-hards to push the envelope.