Page 1 of 4
question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Mon, 24 May 2010 21:48:43
by jaywade
2 things
1. do I have to tell a LEO in Va that I have a permit and I'm armed if I'm CC'ing during a traffic stop
2. can a LEO legaly ask me to hand over my firearm during a taffic stop??? what do I do if that question is asked? (just a normal stop, light speeding or maybe failure to stop at a stop sign or something else minor)
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Mon, 24 May 2010 22:15:51
by M1A4ME
When I took the classes to get the CC permit about 10 years ago they told us that our names were entered into a DMV database once we got a permit. They said when the LEO called in our license plate prior to stopping us they would be informed that we had a CC permit.
I do not know if that is true but that is what the instructor told us.
I have been in a car stopped by a WV State Trooper (my wife has a heavy foot
). When he walked up to the car and asked for her license and registration I told him I had a CC permit and a handgun. He did not even blink, he did not ask to see the handgun but he did ask to see my permit. A few minutes later we were on the road again with no issues from the traffic stop.
It probably depends on who stops you. My cousin caught a ration of crap from a local cop awhile back when he got stopped. That LEO did want to see his pistol. That guy was so stupid he called told my cousin he would have to confiscate the gun because it was reported as stolen in New Jersey. My cousin told him no way as he had the receipt for it from when he purchased it new a few years ago. The cop insisted that the gun had been reported stolen in NJ. My cousin asked him how he figured that since he had the receipt. The cop told him he'd called it in and a Springfield Armory pistol with the serial number 1911A1 had been stolen in NJ the previous year. My cousin tried to tell him that was the model number, not the serial number and they "discussed" it till a WV State Trooper stopped and walked up to the car. The Trooper listened to both sides of the story and then sent the local cop on down the road. He shook his head and told my cousin to have a nice day and head on about his business. Hope I don't run into that guy.
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Mon, 24 May 2010 23:24:22
by ProShooter
jaywade wrote:2 things
1. do I have to tell a LEO in Va that I have a permit and I'm armed if I'm CC'ing during a traffic stop
No, you do not have to inform but for safety reasons, it is generally a good idea to inform them.
2. can a LEO legaly ask me to hand over my firearm during a taffic stop??? what do I do if that question is asked? (just a normal stop, light speeding or maybe failure to stop at a stop sign or something else minor)
Sure he can ask. And you can refuse. Remember this though, the more at ease he is, the better it is for you. If you make the gun the focus of the traffic stop, it'll probably end up being more of a problem than you bargained for.
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Mon, 24 May 2010 23:26:46
by ProShooter
M1A4ME wrote:When I took the classes to get the CC permit about 10 years ago they told us that our names were entered into a DMV database once we got a permit. (true)
They said when the LEO called in our license plate prior to stopping us they would be informed that we had a CC permit. (not based on the license plate, but rather the driver's license)
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 00:40:03
by gunderwood
ProShooter wrote:jaywade wrote:2 things
1. do I have to tell a LEO in Va that I have a permit and I'm armed if I'm CC'ing during a traffic stop
No, you do not have to inform but for safety reasons, it is generally a good idea to inform them.
2. can a LEO legaly ask me to hand over my firearm during a taffic stop??? what do I do if that question is asked? (just a normal stop, light speeding or maybe failure to stop at a stop sign or something else minor)
Sure he can ask. And you can refuse. Remember this though, the more at ease he is, the better it is for you. If you make the gun the focus of the traffic stop, it'll probably end up being more of a problem than you bargained for.
Are you saying that if I exercise my lawful right to refuse an unreasonable search and seizure (4th), I can expect to be harassed by the LEO, generally have my other rights violated and he will be completely protected by the law?
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 00:52:46
by ProShooter
gunderwood wrote:ProShooter wrote:jaywade wrote:2 things
1. do I have to tell a LEO in Va that I have a permit and I'm armed if I'm CC'ing during a traffic stop
No, you do not have to inform but for safety reasons, it is generally a good idea to inform them.
2. can a LEO legaly ask me to hand over my firearm during a taffic stop??? what do I do if that question is asked? (just a normal stop, light speeding or maybe failure to stop at a stop sign or something else minor)
Sure he can ask. And you can refuse. Remember this though, the more at ease he is, the better it is for you. If you make the gun the focus of the traffic stop, it'll probably end up being more of a problem than you bargained for.
Are you saying that if I exercise my lawful right to refuse an unreasonable search and seizure (4th), I can expect to be harassed by the LEO, generally have my other rights violated and he will be completely protected by the law?
I fail to see how you come up with that based on my responses.
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 07:04:08
by zephyp
First I would not inform them. If they see it on your record and ask then tell them yes. If they ask you to surrender it I would.
I dont believe there is a law that says you have to surrender but as soon as you refuse you create a situation that places you in jeopardy of the LEO looking for things to cite you for.
Case in point...lets say an LEO illegally detains you. It is in your best interest to play along and not resist. If you do then that makes you look bad later in court if you try to get them for a rights violation.
Always best to cooperate even if you know they are wrong. In the example above make sure you let them know at least once that they are illegally detaining you. If they ask to search your vehicle simply tell them that you do not consent to search. If they search anyway make a mental note. The more you resist the deeper the hole you dig for yourself. The more they persist and do without your consent (while you are not resisting) then the deeper hole they dig for themselves.
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 11:06:21
by jaywade
thanks for all the replies what I was wondering was is a LEO in his "rights" to inspect the firearm ...should I carry the receipt around w/ it as well... I've heard stories of LEO placing the firearm in your trunk as they leave , is this their SOP for a CC holder in a traffic stop?
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 11:32:05
by gunderwood
You can only quote so deep, so I quoted my self to keep the context.
gunderwood wrote:ProShooter wrote:jaywade wrote:2 things
1. do I have to tell a LEO in Va that I have a permit and I'm armed if I'm CC'ing during a traffic stop
No, you do not have to inform but for safety reasons, it is generally a good idea to inform them.
2. can a LEO legaly ask me to hand over my firearm during a taffic stop??? what do I do if that question is asked? (just a normal stop, light speeding or maybe failure to stop at a stop sign or something else minor)
Sure he can ask. And you can refuse. Remember this though, the more at ease he is, the better it is for you. If you make the gun the focus of the traffic stop, it'll probably end up being more of a problem than you bargained for.
Are you saying that if I exercise my lawful right to refuse an unreasonable search and seizure (4th), I can expect to be harassed by the LEO, generally have my other rights violated and he will be completely protected by the law?
To summarize the question: can a LEO ask you to give up your rights. Yes, they can, but you should never consent under any circumstances.
The SCOTUS has ruled, practically, that unless you demand your rights you don't have them. Practically, you must demand them multiple times and there can be no ambiguity to your demands. If you consent or even are squishy on your non-consent, the LEO can violate your rights with no consequences. Sit on a Grand Jury sometime and take note how many cases they performed warrant less searches with no PC (RAS often is questionable too, but the citizen consented...).
LE are trained to ask for such permission because citizens, who don't know their rights, consistently allow them to do these things.
Now, to answer your question:
I fail to see how you come up with that based on my responses.
If you make the gun the focus of the traffic stop, it'll probably end up being more of a problem than you bargained for
The logic here is flawed and contrary to the Founders intent.
I, by refusing to hand over a lawfully carried weapon, have not made the traffic stop or any other detention, about the weapon. I have a 4th Amendment right to protect me against unreasonable searches and seizures. By demanding I consent to give up my rights as a citizen and
taking offense when I refuse, the LEO has done that, not me.
Unless the LEO has RAS that I committed a crime with that weapon and can articulate it, or has the PC to arrest me, they have no valid reason to disarm me...PERIOD. To demand that I do so or to force me to do so is a violation of my 4th Amendment rights. If they ask and I consent, then it isn't, but you should never consent to give up your rights...EVER.
So your warning that I can expect "more of a problem than you [sic; tense changed, should be I] bargained for" is wrong. LEO must work within the limits we the people and the States have put on them. To suggest it is ok for a LEO to harass anyone because they stand up for their rights is just Statism. Any LEO who can't deal with citizens being treated like citizens doesn't belong in that job. If they can't perform their duties with respect and without harassing citizens because they won't bow down to their unreasonable demands, they are bad cops and should be stripped of their badges.
As a society, we
pay LEO to enforce the law. It is a hard job, but so are many others. Any LEO who doesn't respect a citizens rights and expects them to roll over just because the almighty badge said so is
no friend of a free people. They are exactly the corrupt, power-hungry scum that give all LE a bad name and must go.
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 11:38:13
by gunderwood
jaywade wrote:thanks for all the replies what I was wondering was is a LEO in his "rights" to inspect the firearm ...should I carry the receipt around w/ it as well... I've heard stories of LEO placing the firearm in your trunk as they leave , is this their SOP for a CC holder in a traffic stop?
The state (general term for government, more to it but good enough for now) has no "rights." Rights are clearly articulated in the Declaration of Independence and many other founding documents as being bestowed upon individuals by their Creator and as such, are unalienable. What rule can government create for itself that is unalienable? Which government is bestowed rights by the Creator? Exactly, there isn't any such thing. Only individuals have rights.
The state has restrictions on what it can do, everything else is left to the people. A LEO, being an agent of the state, must abide by those restrictions. To arbitrarily "inspect" your firearm without RAS, the LEO must first unreasonably seize your firearm and then search it. Unless you consent to it, no. What a corrupt judge may rationalize as reasonable in certain jurisdictions is another matter altogether.
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 11:55:54
by ProShooter
gunderwood wrote:
I, by refusing to hand over a lawfully carried weapon, have not made the traffic stop or any other detention, about the weapon. I have a 4th Amendment right to protect me against unreasonable searches and seizures. By demanding I consent to give up my rights as a citizen and taking offense when I refuse, the LEO has done that, not me.
I think you may be misunderstanding something. You are correct about the 4th and unreasonable searches and seizure. The problem with your statement though, is that courts have continuously upheld that the
temporary seizure of a weapon in the interest of officer safety (as well as yours) is
not unreasonable. When you are stopped for a traffic offense, and issued a summons, you are technically being "arrested". Securing the gun for 5 minutes shouldn't become the big issue here. Now, without Probable Cause, the officer should have no reason to run the serial numbers and that probably is a 4th violation but to temporarily seize a gun during a traffic stop is not unreasonable.
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 12:46:26
by gunderwood
ProShooter wrote:gunderwood wrote:
I, by refusing to hand over a lawfully carried weapon, have not made the traffic stop or any other detention, about the weapon. I have a 4th Amendment right to protect me against unreasonable searches and seizures. By demanding I consent to give up my rights as a citizen and taking offense when I refuse, the LEO has done that, not me.
I think you may be misunderstanding something. You are correct about the 4th and unreasonable searches and seizure. The problem with your statement though, is that courts have continuously upheld that the
temporary seizure of a weapon in the interest of officer safety (as well as yours) is
not unreasonable. When you are stopped for a traffic offense, and issued a summons, you are technically being "arrested". Securing the gun for 5 minutes shouldn't become the big issue here. Now, without Probable Cause, the officer should have no reason to run the serial numbers and that probably is a 4th violation but to temporarily seize a gun during a traffic stop is not unreasonable.
And the "courts" are wrong.
Like I said, what they rationalize is a whole different story. Apparently most courts are in need of a dictionary for they lack the understanding of both unalienable and unreasonable.
It is unreasonable for the state to search or seize anything that is not directly related to the case at hand. A traffic stop has no bearing on my being armed whatsoever. Should they search my cell phone or seize it to keep me from calling my lawyer or recording them during an illegal traffic stop? Absolutely not. The "rulings" vary, but they are not consistent with our form of government and are nothing but tyranny.
Edit: In the name of safety anything can be rationalized.
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:04:15
by cigarmanva
ProShooter wrote:
I think you may be misunderstanding something. You are correct about the 4th and unreasonable searches and seizure. The problem with your statement though, is that courts have continuously upheld that the temporary seizure of a weapon in the interest of officer safety (as well as yours) is not unreasonable. When you are stopped for a traffic offense, and issued a summons, you are technically being "arrested". Securing the gun for 5 minutes shouldn't become the big issue here. Now, without Probable Cause, the officer should have no reason to run the serial numbers and that probably is a 4th violation but to temporarily seize a gun during a traffic stop is not unreasonable.
guess they should seize my car too since it could be used against the leo...or my shoes, or my lighter.....just because the courts rule it so, don't make it so
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:34:34
by LFS
cigarmanva wrote:ProShooter wrote:
I think you may be misunderstanding something. You are correct about the 4th and unreasonable searches and seizure. The problem with your statement though, is that courts have continuously upheld that the temporary seizure of a weapon in the interest of officer safety (as well as yours) is not unreasonable. When you are stopped for a traffic offense, and issued a summons, you are technically being "arrested". Securing the gun for 5 minutes shouldn't become the big issue here. Now, without Probable Cause, the officer should have no reason to run the serial numbers and that probably is a 4th violation but to temporarily seize a gun during a traffic stop is not unreasonable.
guess they should seize my car too since it could be used against the leo...or my shoes, or my lighter.....just because the courts rule it so, don't make it so
No. Just because they rule it doesn't make it
right. There is a big difference between how the world should work and how the world does work. You will not be in a good place if you refuse to hand over your firearm when a policeman asks you to do so.
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:46:42
by cigarmanva
also, i'm never a fan of holstering/unholstering my loaded gun and giving it to someone who may or may not be aware of how to clear it. I don't want to be shot by any gun let alone my own gun. If the leos are disarming me for "their safety" then I should get to hold his gun too...or at least some kevlar. Any time you unholster, transfer or reholster a hot gun there's an increased risk of a ND which doesn't sound very safe to me. I've always been taught, lock, load, and leave the damn thing alone till you're gona use it. The disarming of citizens by leos is just a power trip for the leos. I've said it before and I'll say it again I'm far less concerned for his safety then I am for mine. Hey, it's dangerous out there and all i want to do is get home safe at the end of the day
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:48:04
by gunderwood
cigarmanva wrote:ProShooter wrote:
I think you may be misunderstanding something. You are correct about the 4th and unreasonable searches and seizure. The problem with your statement though, is that courts have continuously upheld that the temporary seizure of a weapon in the interest of officer safety (as well as yours) is not unreasonable. When you are stopped for a traffic offense, and issued a summons, you are technically being "arrested". Securing the gun for 5 minutes shouldn't become the big issue here. Now, without Probable Cause, the officer should have no reason to run the serial numbers and that probably is a 4th violation but to temporarily seize a gun during a traffic stop is not unreasonable.
guess they should seize my car too since it could be used against the leo...or my shoes, or my lighter.....just because the courts rule it so, don't make it so
I cite precedent for the use of shoes as violent tools that should be seized by government for their own protection: Iraqi who threw them at Bush and the shoe bomber.
Clearly we have an epidemic and all shoes should be turned in at the request of LE for their safety...yours too! After all, you never know when your shoes might throw themselves at you!
It is absurd to suggest that handing over my firearm, at the demand of a LEO, is for my own safety. The only threat I would face in is from the LEO shooting me because I questioned his authority to reasonable seize my firearm. Why does questioning LE give them a death warrant for me?
If I am not being threatening, it is absurd to suggest it is for the LEOs safety either. Same logic as gun bans and restrictions and everyone here argues against those. They don't work, but when we are talking about LE, you are laying down because somehow LE is the holy of holy's, must not be questioned and can do no wrong.
LFS wrote:cigarmanva wrote:ProShooter wrote:
I think you may be misunderstanding something. You are correct about the 4th and unreasonable searches and seizure. The problem with your statement though, is that courts have continuously upheld that the temporary seizure of a weapon in the interest of officer safety (as well as yours) is not unreasonable. When you are stopped for a traffic offense, and issued a summons, you are technically being "arrested". Securing the gun for 5 minutes shouldn't become the big issue here. Now, without Probable Cause, the officer should have no reason to run the serial numbers and that probably is a 4th violation but to temporarily seize a gun during a traffic stop is not unreasonable.
guess they should seize my car too since it could be used against the leo...or my shoes, or my lighter.....just because the courts rule it so, don't make it so
No. Just because they rule it doesn't make it
right. There is a big difference between how the world should work and how the world does work. You will not be in a good place if you refuse to hand over your firearm when a policeman asks you to do so.
If you can't refuse to hand it over, despite the 4th Amendment, it isn't a request. It is a demand. One, if you believe this forum, they are willing to back up by the taking of your life or at the very least, harassing you.
What are they going to do shoot me for saying no? Never mind.
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Wed, 26 May 2010 00:04:37
by CCFan
some interesting reading for you all, pertaining to the recent incident in Roanoke...
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Wed, 26 May 2010 00:21:52
by jaywade
CCFan wrote:some interesting reading for you all, pertaining to the recent incident in Roanoke...
neat read...
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Wed, 26 May 2010 00:51:20
by ProShooter
Those cops screwed up big time.
Re: question about CC and traffic stops
Posted: Wed, 26 May 2010 05:51:21
by zephyp
The bottom line is if an LEO presses to do something you know is a rights violation you should make it clear verbally that you do not agree...dont argue or get nasty...dont give them any reason to cite you for anything...dont resist merely inform...if you keep your cool you will be in a much better position later in court...if you resist physically or become verbally abusive then you take part in the wrongdoing...then its a matter of who said or did what when...things like that can get muddy in court when the other side wants it to...