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New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:31:46
by derek141
I guess this is as good a place as any to dive in to the discussion...
Although not new to either VA (military childhood) or carry, now that I am back in VA I've gotten my CHP @ Loudoun Co. Having moved quite a bit I've been licensed in 5 home states now, and carry licenses for others who only recognize their own.
The two observations that seem most different to me about VA are a) the actual permit itself, from a blank printable sheet of business cards, not a very authentic document. Not that I care, I'm just sayin'...
And b) this is the only shall-issue state I've seen require a two-stop process in the same day for application. This is rather annoying because a vacation day has to be burned. When I asked the court clerk what additional function they provided beyond the Sheriff, out of genuine confusion, she basically told me the court's only function is to send out the permit, period. Now I've seen it done centrally through state DPS's and delegated to Sheriff's offices alike, but this is a unique setup we've got going here in VA!
Great to be back home.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:34:34
by zephyp
Actually the court does more than just send out the permit. They are signed by a circuit court judge. I'd rather have mine signed that way than by a local police chief or sheriff. Gives it a little more oomph, at least I think.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:38:23
by derek141
Well as I understand it and read the card,
if a judge signs anything it is not the permit. The Clerk of Courts is the signatory on the card I received. As I reviewed the VA judicial system, the Clerk of Courts is an administrator but does not have an adjudicative function. Thanks for the reply.
http://www.courts.state.va.us/courts/ci ... /cccdl.pdf
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:16:24
by zephyp
Hmmm. Mine (Farifax county) was signed by a judge and the pre-printed signature line reads Judge. Also, there is a proposed bill in the VA system as we speak that would allow a judge to delegate signing permits to the clerk if certain conditions are met...Mine was signed by a circuit court judge and he also issued me a letter congratulating me. Not sure why you think that is not a permit. Also, if what you say is true then why is there a proposed bill in circulation as I stated - link below?
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... sum+HB1191
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:27:35
by derek141
Now that is interesting.
The reason for my confusion and question at the court centered around, the following: why is it that a judge would have discretion on issuance, if it is a shall-issue state? So your situation would re-invoke my question. There ought not be any further brainpower expended as to whether issuance takes place if the criteria set forth by the legislature are met by an applicant.
Here in LoCo it is the Clerk of the Circuit court getting paid and issuing the permits, by default it seems. As you noted in contrast, the title on the sig box here states Gary M. Clemens, Clerk, which matches up with the individual listed on the LoCo Circuit Court website as the Clerk of Courts.
As to why the bill, perhaps a better informed member than I would care to chime in.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:32:46
by Username
You had to make two stops? I only had to go, apply, leave. Took me 15 minutes and I took care of it over lunch break.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:39:05
by derek141
Stop 1: Sheriff's office with application to be blessed with a background check, SO to place packet in sealed envelope that was required to be delivered prior to 1530 on the same day.
Hop in the car for a ride across town...
Stop 2: Courthouse to pay clerk and deliver packet, at which time it was unsealed by the employee, who immediately flipped to the page with the results of the background.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:43:25
by Rumson
My Loudoun issued permit is signed by the Clerk as well. Also had to go by the police station first before going to the courthouse.. The process could be less painful, but I'll still take it for now.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:51:29
by ProShooter
If you made the 2 stops as you described below, then you need to hold your Circuit Court Clerk accountable to the Code. Hanover is doing the exact same thing, and its wrong. What you describe is the reverse of what the Code requires.
ETA - I just looked up Loudon's process...
http://www.loudoun.gov/controls/speerio ... vices+Info
and it is wrong as I surmised. Plus, they ask you to show proof of proficiency with a firearm. The Code actually requires competency, which is something totally different.
derek141 wrote:Stop 1: Sheriff's office with application to be blessed with a background check, SO to place packet in sealed envelope that was required to be delivered prior to 1530 on the same day.
Hop in the car for a ride across town...
Stop 2: Courthouse to pay clerk and deliver packet, at which time it was unsealed by the employee, who immediately flipped to the page with the results of the background.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:59:07
by zephyp
ProShooter wrote:If you made the 2 stops as you described below, then you need to hold your Circuit Court Clerk accountable to the Code. Hanover is doing the exact same thing, and its wrong. What you describe is the reverse of what the Code requires.
derek141 wrote:Stop 1: Sheriff's office with application to be blessed with a background check, SO to place packet in sealed envelope that was required to be delivered prior to 1530 on the same day.
Hop in the car for a ride across town...
Stop 2: Courthouse to pay clerk and deliver packet, at which time it was unsealed by the employee, who immediately flipped to the page with the results of the background.
I agree. I think the code says applications are to be submitted to the circuit court clerk along with the fee period. The judge grants it (shall issue) if he/she finds nothing based on the law that would not allow issuance.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:07:05
by derek141
ProShooter wrote:If you made the 2 stops as you described below, then you need to hold your Circuit Court Clerk accountable to the Code. Hanover is doing the exact same thing, and its wrong. What you describe is the reverse of what the Code requires.
Sounds like the delegation of issuance by the Commonwealth to the Circuits isn't being held to a very high standard of accountability or uniformity. Perhaps this is why some state legislatures retain the issuing authority at the state level, Texas and Florida being the posterchildren. The delegation model can work well if done with the legislature's clear expectation of uniformity (teeth), as in Ohio and Nevada.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 18:09:15
by ProShooter
zephyp wrote:ProShooter wrote:If you made the 2 stops as you described below, then you need to hold your Circuit Court Clerk accountable to the Code. Hanover is doing the exact same thing, and its wrong. What you describe is the reverse of what the Code requires.
derek141 wrote:Stop 1: Sheriff's office with application to be blessed with a background check, SO to place packet in sealed envelope that was required to be delivered prior to 1530 on the same day.
Hop in the car for a ride across town...
Stop 2: Courthouse to pay clerk and deliver packet, at which time it was unsealed by the employee, who immediately flipped to the page with the results of the background.
I agree. I think the code says applications are to be submitted to the circuit court clerk along with the fee period. The judge grants it (shall issue) if he/she finds nothing based on the law that would not allow issuance.
Correct.
The Code also requires that the app is delivered to the clerk before or at the same time as a background check is conducted, not do the background check first and then deliver it to the clerk.
"An application is deemed complete when all information required to be furnished by the applicant is delivered to and received by the clerk of court before or concomitant with the conduct of a state or national criminal history records check".
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 19:37:12
by Vahunter
Here the background check is done then handed over to the clerk. Then the jude reviews the background check and the clerk signs it.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 21:56:28
by GS78
those damn " judes" again........
.......
who cares who signs what? really, I mean try living in New York, ask Bloomberg to sign one......
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:00:37
by gregj
Here in Fauquier County, IIRC, it was at least a five step process, and done on three separate days. Gotta love an efficient gov.
Stop 1: Go to the Circuit Court office to pick up application p/w, including finger print cards.
Stop 2: Go to Sheriff office to get finger printed
Stop 3: Return filled out p/w to Circuit Court along with finger print cards and pay for application.
Stop 4: Return to Circuit Court 40+ days later (when received card in mail that permit was in) to pick up CHP permit.
Stop 5: Return to Sheriff dept to pick up finger print cards, or just let them destroy the card. I chose to pick them up.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:42:28
by derek141
GS78 wrote:those damn " judes" again........
.......
who cares who signs what? really, I mean try living in New York, ask Bloomberg to sign one......
I don't care if the chief county rodeo clown signs the permit. I do care somewhat that this county appears to be in violation of the code, and that resulted in the necessary use of vacation time that was not spent with my family.
Please review: the original question revolved around the appearance of discretion being exercised in a shall-issue state, and I believe one of our members has helped sort this out nicely.
And no thanks, I won't try to live in New York, Wisconsin, Illinois, or California. There is some method to my madness. Still, the "just be happy what Constitutional rights you're allowed to have" approach is IMHO not the right perspective to have with CC or any civil right.
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:45:47
by allingeneral
derek141 wrote:GS78 wrote:those damn " judes" again........
.......
who cares who signs what? really, I mean try living in New York, ask Bloomberg to sign one......
I don't care if the chief county rodeo clown signs the permit. I do care somewhat that this county appears to be in violation of the code, and that resulted in the necessary use of vacation time that was not spent with my family.
Please review: the original question revolved around the appearance of discretion being exercised in a shall-issue state, and I believe one of our members has helped sort this out nicely.
And no thanks, I won't try to live in New York, Wisconsin, Illinois, or California. There is some method to my madness. Still, the "just be happy what Constitutional rights you're allowed to have" approach is IMHO not the right perspective to have with CC or any civil right.
on all of the above
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:48:39
by derek141
gregj wrote:Here in Fauquier County, IIRC, it was at least a five step process, and done on three separate days. Gotta love an efficient gov.
Stop 1: Go to the Circuit Court office to pick up application p/w, including finger print cards.
Stop 2: Go to Sheriff office to get finger printed
Stop 3: Return filled out p/w to Circuit Court along with finger print cards and pay for application.
Stop 4: Return to Circuit Court 40+ days later (when received card in mail that permit was in) to pick up CHP permit.
Stop 5: Return to Sheriff dept to pick up finger print cards, or just let them destroy the card. I chose to pick them up.
Fingerprints. That's cute. The paperwork I got online and completed @ home.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... 15.2-915.3
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:50:51
by GS78
derek141 wrote:GS78 wrote:those damn " judes" again........
.......
who cares who signs what? really, I mean try living in New York, ask Bloomberg to sign one......
I don't care if the chief county rodeo clown signs the permit. I do care somewhat that this county appears to be in violation of the code, and that resulted in the necessary use of vacation time that was not spent with my family.
Please review: the original question revolved around the appearance of discretion being exercised in a shall-issue state, and I believe one of our members has helped sort this out nicely.
And no thanks, I won't try to live in New York, Wisconsin, Illinois, or California. There is some method to my madness. Still, the "just be happy what Constitutional rights you're allowed to have" approach is IMHO not the right perspective to have with CC or any civil right.
oh c'mon, lighten up, it's a vacation day you are crying about. Its not like they took something from you that you actually worked for. Do you know how many people work their asses off at jobs that do not "GIVE" vacation days to employees? be real, stop crying over something so freakin trivial. I mean you could have taken the family with you, it was a "teachable moment", it could have been a one day vacation to learn about local government........
, the kids could have taken a "vacation day " from school. ....
Re: New to VA carry- a few observations
Posted: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:17:12
by derek141
GS78 wrote:derek141 wrote:GS78 wrote:those damn " judes" again........
.......
who cares who signs what? really, I mean try living in New York, ask Bloomberg to sign one......
I don't care if the chief county rodeo clown signs the permit. I do care somewhat that this county appears to be in violation of the code, and that resulted in the necessary use of vacation time that was not spent with my family.
Please review: the original question revolved around the appearance of discretion being exercised in a shall-issue state, and I believe one of our members has helped sort this out nicely.
And no thanks, I won't try to live in New York, Wisconsin, Illinois, or California. There is some method to my madness. Still, the "just be happy what Constitutional rights you're allowed to have" approach is IMHO not the right perspective to have with CC or any civil right.
oh c'mon, lighten up, it's a vacation day you are crying about. Its not like they took something from you that you actually worked for. Do you know how many people work their asses off at jobs that do not "GIVE" vacation days to employees? be real, stop crying over something so freakin trivial. I mean you could have taken the family with you, it was a "teachable moment", it could have been a one day vacation to learn about local government........
, the kids could have taken a "vacation day " from school. ....
You're not quite correct on the vacation. My vacation time is compensation earned the same as my salary. While this is thread-drift, I will engage your commentary. I "work my ass off" at a job with a specific compensation package because I "worked my ass off" for 12 years in school and postgraduate training. No one has "given" me any vacation.
No one's crying last I checked. The kids are two and newborn, so I'm not sure how much of that civics lesson would have stuck. Don't believe the full-term wife would have considered that a bunch of fun, either. Please be cautious what assumptions you make about another man's personal life, because you could be quite mistaken.
That is all.