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Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 12:43:40
by youg
First let me say I fully understand that carrying, even with a concealment permit, in an establishment that serves alcohol on the premise is prohibited. Correct me if I’m wrong, I believe it would be a Class 1 misdemeanor. My question is if you were to get caught (and actually prosecuted) would it take away my rights to conceal carry? Some of my cop buddies say they would just tell me to take it out of there, no big deal. But I want to know worst-case scenario. Honestly if it wouldn’t take my concealment rights from me I might take my chances, if it did I’d be a little more leery. Just for the record I don’t drink. Not that that makes it legal but I’m talking about just dinner with my wife at any old restaurant. Thanks for any input.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 14:01:39
by SgtBill
This is simple. What part of the breaking of the law don't you understand. Break the law and loose your permit. A no brainer.
P.S. I had 25 year's in law enforcement.
Bill
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 14:21:02
by allingeneral
Don't conceal in any establishment that has an ABC license for consumption of alcohol "on premises" (VIrginia Code 18.2-308 J.3). You can open carry in these establishments all day long as long as they're not posted otherwise and management doesn't approach you and ask you to leave.
Generally, when I'm out on the town and decide to stop at such an establishment, I will do the old "Virginia Tuck", ensuring that my sidearm is openly carried in such a manner that it cannot be disputed that it's in the open and not "hidden from common observation" or "observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature" - which is quoted from Virginia Code 18.2-308.
I sometimes sit in a booth with my strong side in, so as not to draw too much attention (but I really don't care one way or the other), then I sit there and enjoy my meal, pay my tab, get up and walk out the door and untuck/conceal.
No problems as of yet from any managers at any restaurant that I've visited over the last year or so.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:05:21
by Username
youg wrote:First let me say I fully understand that carrying, even with a concealment permit, in an establishment that serves alcohol on the premise is prohibited.
Then don't do it. You risk not only your own permit, but the permits of others who follow the rules were it to cause an incident MSM could seize hold of and publish.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:07:34
by viiiball
allingeneral wrote:Generally, when I'm out on the town and decide to stop at such an establishment, I will do the old "Virginia Tuck", ensuring that my sidearm is openly carried in such a manner that it cannot be disputed that it's in the open and not "hidden from common observation" or "observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature" - which is quoted from Virginia Code 18.2-308.
Something to be careful with here are inside the waistband holsters. I was listening to Mas Ayoob the other day describe a case he was involved in where the defendant had his weapon in an IWB holster and the prosecute went into trial saying that this was "deceptive". Mas' suggestion was that if you are going to open carry do it outside where its obvious you have a firearm. You never know what a anti-gun DA will push forward.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:14:47
by BluemontGlock
I have it on fairly good authority, that certainly in NOVA, but also the rest of Virginia, The commonwealth is currently actively seeking firearm infractions, and prosocuting them to the full extent, if able, due to the dramatic increase in CCP applications and holders...as a warning and notice.
what you are talking about is illegal. don't do it. as another poster directly stated, you have the abilty to -negatively- affect all of us...please stop. HOLD. and think before you do one more thing...is this (thing) in my best intrest? and then go from there
If you feel that you have to carry a firearm if you go there, and they serve alcohol, don't go there...
not trying to be contrary, but it sounds like your ego is doing some of the talking... and alot of things fly here, but ego isn't one of them... and it IS because of who is here and WHAT they HAVE already done...give that some thought, it can be quite pleasently enlightening....
To be righteous, you must Do and Be, GOOD...
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:16:48
by ProShooter
youg wrote:First let me say I fully understand that carrying, even with a concealment permit, in an establishment that serves alcohol on the premise is prohibited.
Incorrect.
The prohibition is against carrying concealed in a restaurant or club, as defined by 4.1-100, COV. The prohibition does not prevent the lawful carry, concealed or otherwise in places other than restaurants or clubs that serve alcohol on premises and have an ABC license for same.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:18:15
by ProShooter
allingeneral wrote:Don't conceal in any establishment that has an ABC license for consumption of alcohol "on premises"
See my post above
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:20:51
by ProShooter
viiiball wrote:allingeneral wrote:Generally, when I'm out on the town and decide to stop at such an establishment, I will do the old "Virginia Tuck", ensuring that my sidearm is openly carried in such a manner that it cannot be disputed that it's in the open and not "hidden from common observation" or "observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature" - which is quoted from Virginia Code 18.2-308.
Something to be careful with here are inside the waistband holsters. I was listening to Mas Ayoob the other day describe a case he was involved in where the defendant had his weapon in an IWB holster and the prosecute went into trial saying that this was "deceptive". Mas' suggestion was that if you are going to open carry do it outside where its obvious you have a firearm. You never know what a anti-gun DA will push forward.
EXACTLY! THANK YOU!
I have been preaching this to my students for years. An IWB holster is designed, advertised and sold as a "concealment holster". One day, Virginia tuck is going to get someone prosecuted.
Glad to see that ol' Mas and I finally agree on something! 
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 16:35:36
by babarsac
So would this apply to say Wegmans grocery stores up here in NOVA? Some have a place in the back where you can get a glass of wine but I don't think the entire establishment would be defined as a bar or club.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 17:04:18
by ProShooter
babarsac wrote:So would this apply to say Wegmans grocery stores up here in NOVA? Some have a place in the back where you can get a glass of wine but I don't think the entire establishment would be defined as a bar or club.
It depends on what their ABC license says, and hopefully the ABC Board has coded them correctly based upon 4.1-100
Search here for their license designation - http://www.abc.state.va.us/licenseeSear ... aillicense
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 17:42:16
by LFS
ProShooter wrote:babarsac wrote:So would this apply to say Wegmans grocery stores up here in NOVA? Some have a place in the back where you can get a glass of wine but I don't think the entire establishment would be defined as a bar or club.
It depends on what their ABC license says, and hopefully the ABC Board has coded them correctly based upon 4.1-100
Search here for their license designation - http://www.abc.state.va.us/licenseeSear ... aillicense
I've said it before and I'll say it again: it is almost as if these laws were designed to ensnare otherwise law-abiding citizens.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:26:41
by herohog
I carry a cheap retention holster with me for when I have to go into an open-cary only zone. It clips on my belt and has a thumb break. This way I KNOW I am legal and above reproach.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 20:55:54
by youg
Thanks for the input guys. You're right the last thing I would ever want to do is cause future problems for other law-abiding citizens. And, I meant no disrespect for the law. Hell I’m about as straight lased as you get. I hear you guys loud and clear. I will not conceal where not allowed. Done. Until the laws change they are what they are. But I still am curious. Is it a stated fact that it would be a Class 1 misdemeanor? And would a Class 1 misdemeanor revoke your CCP privileges? Thanks again, like I said I hear you loud and clear.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 21:04:42
by allingeneral
Seems to me that it would be treated as a Class 1 Misdemeanor - a second violation would be a Class 6 Felony. Just don't do it and you won't need to worry about the level of the crime.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 01:11:55
by P99
Think this will be repealed this year?
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 06:55:16
by viiiball
I tried using this search to check on Wegman's but I keep getting "Invalid Search Criteria". I enter as much information as I have. Do you have to know the license #?
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 08:54:11
by zephyp
P99 wrote:Think this will be repealed this year?
Its supposedly on the docket. If it gets past the legislature our new governor will no doubt sign it. I'm certain it will cause some uproar and the antis will beat the drum loudly. My guess is we will begin to see no gun signs at some restaurants where before there were none if it passes.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 08:58:12
by ProShooter
viiiball wrote:
I tried using this search to check on Wegman's but I keep getting "Invalid Search Criteria". I enter as much information as I have. Do you have to know the license #?
try searching by the city...sometimes less info is better
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:36:12
by viiiball
ProShooter wrote:
It depends on what their ABC license says, and hopefully the ABC Board has coded them correctly based upon 4.1-100
So I did a search on Wegman's and this is what came up:
Privilege Description: Wine and Beer On and Off Premises/Keg Permit
So what does this mean for concealed carry?