Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Greetings fellow Gun Owners!

I am Albert Shank of Charlottesville, Virginia and I love guns! I am a paying and active member of many gun organizations and I own many types of firearms. Last year, out of enthusiasm for my hobby, I got a young friend involved in sports shooting with me. My young friend took proper training, obtained safe and excellent instruction from our NRA trainer here at our local gun club and in early summer, my friend obtained his CCP from his home jurisdiction. On my advice, because he's a "beginner", he bought a Smith .40 hi-cap semi-auto and a "Keltec" .32 auto for self-defense, concealed carry. We went shooting a few times.

In late August, shortly before Labor Day, my friend attended an invited party for young people at Sweetbriar College in Amherst County, Virginia. During the course of the evening, as is occasionally the wont of young people, a disagreement arose between my friend and some other young men who were also in attendance. These young men were from Richmond, Virginia. My fiend was severely abused by these other men and in end, was assaulted and threatened by two very large, hulking assailants. Fearing for his life, and unable to retreat further, my friend withdrew his firearm from concealed carry on his waistband to protect himself. He did not point the weapon at the assailants, nor did he threaten to fire on them. He merely wanted to let these thugs know he was armed for self-defense.

In a few minutes, the authorities arrived and my friend was arrested for one Class 6 felony and two Class I misdemeanors; to wit: 18.2-308, Code, 18.2-308.1, Code and 18.2-282, Code. He was jailed with NO BOND and held over the weekend until we could obtain a bond hearing the following Tuesday AM.

Bond was set at $US 2500 cash and we obtained his release for a prelim on October 15, 2009, in Amherst GDC. The Oct 15, 2009 hearing was moved forward to December 15, 2009 due to attorney conflicts. We appeared on December 15, 2009, having arranged a "plea" bargain conviction with the Amherst County CA to avoid "gun-or gun-related" charges. The reason for this is that my friend is a permanent immigrant and a gun charge conviction of any kind (felony or misdemeanor) might bar his citizenship. In the end, we were able to cop to 18-415, Code, "Disorderly Conduct" and we have no prior record whatsoever. The original "trumped up" charges, were dropped (nol prossed), as this whole episode was unfairly charged and inappropriately presented. Oh, by the way, we spent over $10,000 US doing all of this.

For the simple Class I misdemeanor of 18.415 "Disorderly Conduct", with no prior record whatsoever, my young friend received 12 months in jail (11 suspended), 30 days to serve on weekends(!), a $500 fine, 100 hours of "community service", confiscation of his weapon, an expensive handgun, forfeiture of his Virginia CCP, and has a misdemeanor criminal record! This can't be "justice" as I have always known it. The assailants got NOTHING!

Now, furthermore, because of this event, I invested a considerable amount of time and money in legal research on Virginia "gun law". Many of us who carry here in the Commonwealth, don't know "squat" about gun law here in Virginia and I'm telling you now that you had best inform yourselves if you plan on any carrying around here in the Old Dominion.

First of all, Virginia has no "castle" or "stand your ground law" regarding self-defense with a firearm. Therefore, even if you are 100% justified in using your weapon to defend yourself or your family, you will be arrested, jailed and have to go to court to prove that you were "right" in what you did. Let me ask you this: how many of you have the kind of money it takes to hire a first class "gun defense" lawyer? How long could you afford to be in jail and off work? How would you pay your lawyer? How would your family eat while you are locked up? Etc, etc. What about your employer? Would he/she "understand" your being locked up on a murder charge? Think it over!

In 2005, the great State of Florida passed "castle" and "stand your ground" law. 25 other states did the same. Virginia and Wyoming (of all places) did NOT pass these great laws! Why not, you might ask? Ladies and gentlemen, now that we have a great, new gun friendly Governor, now is the time to address this issue with your representatives. Personally, until we can get some legislative support here in Virginia, I have stopped carrying my firerarms completely. I consider it too risky for my family's and my welfare. I am lucky, however, because as it so happens, I could defend myself against a weapons charge for quite some time before my resources would be depleted and I have a very heavy liability insurance policy, but what about all or any of you? And, oh yes, by the way, I have better things to do with my money. The simple incident I mentioned above cost over 10 large to take care of. And it was not "justice", but merely an "outcome", as I called it. Could you have afforded this? How about your personal feelings on being humiliated and disgraced by this arbitrary and capricious system?

Think it over, my fellow gun lovers. I am going to Richmond for VCDL "Lobby Day" on January 18, 2010. I hope to see as many of you there as possible.

Best regards,

Albert

You'll see me on Lobby Day.

The party was on College Campus? Then doesn't he fall subject to the rules regarding firearms on school property?

Would the charge have been related to that?

Username wrote: The party was on College Campus? Then doesn't he fall subject to the rules regarding firearms on school property?

My understanding is that it is up to the private college whether it will allow or not allow firearms on campus. State law does not dictate whether private schools are gun free zones. I know Liberty University does not currently allow concealed carry on campus, but i do know that they have considered it.

You've stopped carrying? I would think being dead or in the hospital would also be a serious financial drain. And being able to defend your family from violence has no price.

I agree that Virginia needs a castle law, however it sounds like both charges would have been easy to defend against. Has your friend filed a criminal complaint against the assailants?

... if I may; you the OP have posted twice in this forum, please help me understand how you or your friend's circumstance - to also include your "testimonial" about the right-to-carry, "castle-doctrine" etc - are valid for everyone here?

I understand providing life-experiences, but one-size-does-not-fit-all here.... While VA does not have a "castle-doctrine" in law, I do strongly-disagree with your position that a valid situation, and use of a weapon (at any esclation factor) would warrant an arrest.

Your decision to stop carrying was your decision; based on what you believed to be in the best interests for your particular station in life - it is not a fact, for everyone else, nor is it a fact embedded in either case-law - application or intent.

I hope that everyone has the opportunity to participate in Lobby Day - as well as any other functions geared towards assisting all of us (varying levels in knowledge) on carrying and exercising our right; and hope that one critically important "knolwedge" is that we should NOT fear carrying or exercising our right(s) to protect ourselves and loved ones - this is a RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY; that never trumps "fear" of the "what-if;" I'd go a step further and state that the "what-if's" are the PRIMARY reason that I carry.

As some of you know by now, I am also new here. Among the many reasons for joining and participating in the conversations here is to further my education and understanding in area of firearms, laws, ect. I've presented a couple of points so far on here not to be argumentative, but to get other perspectives from the people on here who are far more experienced than I.

The scenario/story presented here is not uncommon. It's a fight/gang-up at a party. But throughout the entire explanation, one thing stood out. He brandished his firearm; legally speaking and did not use it. Now I know this is a simple statement (keep in mind what I said above) but correct me if I'm wrong. Everything I've learned over the years, whether military or civilian, is that you DO NOT present your firearm unless you intend to use it. Why did he present his firearm? Where was he when he did? (i.e. was he on his back getting kicked by three people and he saw someone pull out a knife) One thing I do know in my reading is that in VA, you have a responsibility to retreat. I know you said he was cornered, but how? And just for conversation sake, if he truly was cornered and his life truly threatened (once again presentation another deadly weapon) what would the outcome had been if he shot one or more of the individuals? (keeping in mind again, that you don't draw unless you're gong to fire).

On the outside of the box, I have to question his decision to carry his weapon in the first place. College + Party = Alcohol. Not a good place for a firearm. Was he drinking? IIRC, one of the doctrines I've read regarding concealed carry is not to put yourself in a position to use your firearm in the first place. But the other factor to remember here is age. I'm still young enough to remember when I wanted to be a badass. Fortunately, the Corps straightened my badass out and I use a little more common sense these days.

I'm not taking sides, but for my own benefit, I like to be objective to hear what others have to say.

USMC-Gunner - agree with your post; except that there is no duty to retreat in VA if you are NOT the cause of the situation, or if you are not escalating it; if you have a legal right to be at/where you are, not in violation of any laws, etc - there is no retreat required. We are not tasked/required to retreat from the face of violence, unless we created it, a party to it, or escalated it.

Not going to "judge" the OP's reference of the situation (we all have been young and dumb, so the guy he intro'd to shooting and proper firearm protocol was trained correctly, it happens), but what concerned me most was the idea that we (gun-owners) should abandon our principles in protection/carry because of the "what-if's" of a legal argument/predicament of one person.

I've learned plenty and a bunch from the folks here; so while my skull may be thick, it's still filled (not to capacity just yet) with do's and don'ts - it is then up to me to follow that knowledge should I find myself in an adverse situation.

OP,
I appriciate the post, and totally support the idea of a Cassle Doctrine in VA.

However, it seem that your "young friend" has gotten some bad info and advice..." if he was truely "assaulted and threatened" ... i.e. If they actaully struck him, cornered him, or made him "feel" like his life was at serious risk of bodily injury, he should have shot one (or both) and called the police immead...showing, flashing, or in any way identifying that you are concelled carrying with out drawing down on someone is ILL ADVISED, he is lucky they didn't take his firearm from him and shoot him with it, as per the story, he was a single and they were multiple.

If he was not actually assaulted, then , truthfully, it seems he was just showing off...and someone called him on it...tough spot to be in...not matter what the case.

and YES, ESP. in VA, you need to call the police FIRST, everytime, all the time, in every case...PERIOD! ( know this, live this, be..be..be this ... I have learned the hard way myself)

and i cannot quite get past, WHY WOULD YOU PULL YOUR WEAPON FROM A CC IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO USE IT???? NEVER, EVER, DO THIS... isn't this why he was CC in the first place?

Not doubting your tutaledge, or your intent, but what to do and how to handle yourself when carrying is -MORE- important that what your carrying...and RULE #1... IF you are CC'ing, and you are not going to shoot someone, don't pull it out. period.

RULE #2
IF you pull out your CC piece, and do not have to shoot, YOU MUST CONTROL the entire area and CALL THE POLICE ASAP, and do not let any BG call them first, EVER....If you have someone under the gun, even asking a bystander to make the 911 call for you is better than not calling first,...(as, obviously, you do not want to leave the BG unattended)...aslo ask the caller to ( or you yourself ) give a good physical description of you to the police as you will (or should be) have the firearm out and may have someone over the barrell when the police arrive, and you do not want to be a bad statistic after they figure out what is what...

RULE #3
Get the name, contact number of every single witness

RULE #4
Do not carry a firearm, ESPECIALLY CC, unless you are mature enough to handle it and have an idea of what the common thresholds are for bringing a weapon to bear are for a "resonable person"... as that is the criteria for the current law, as i understand it, in VA ( any or all, please correct me if i am off base here)... and again, i would much preffer the Cassel doctrine in force...

If he was in real fear. shoot. If not, leave the party and be man enough to not have a confrontation.

This situation sounds like IT COULD BE pure machismo and bravado to me...just my .02, as i was not there....

but as there is a HORRENDOUS amount of hype and inuendo, personal agenda's, and $$$ around this issue, if you are throwing more into the mix, then directly I say to you, I do not need more fanatics, as fanatics we have enough.

Clear thinking folks that carry themselves in a professional manner, with direct, clear speaking and thoughtful responses are what we require for success in this arena...as and i am quick to point out to any and every demographic, YOU MUST POLICE YOUR OWN, as generally they will listen to no one else...so the onus, IMHO, lies on us to keep the zelousness to a minimum and the intelligence to a maximum and when our Gun toting brothers and sisiter step out of line, we need to step up and say, "Hold...and think, before you do one more thing..."

but, from where I sit, folks like your "young friend" do us no service in our long or short term goals. He only provides fuel for the opposition to say "see, this is not good decison making while carrying a firearm, let alone concelled, that was supported and executed by him and his ego"...no matter what the truth actaully may be...

Cassle Doctrine...Yes!

Young folks CC'ing that will allow themselves to get into "party" alturcation where i'm sure there was a crowd, booze, and who knows what else... NO Thank you, not even a little bit.

The weight of firearm ownership/responsiblity says he should have never been in that sitaution with a firearm in the first place.

Be safe. Carry On. Do Good Things!

I have a few comments on this and someone please correct me if I am wrong.

First of all, let's be realistic: he was at a college party at an all girls school. There was likely drinking involved and the males were likely competing for the affections of the females. IOW: The testosterone was running high and critical thinking was running low.

In order to draw a firearm, you have to be in immediate threat of your life or the life of another or have the threat of grave bodily harm. The threat of getting beat up by two large guys in a room full of other people typically won't count as an immediate threat of life or limb. At the very least, if neither of the two guys displayed deadly weapons, then there is a real good chance that there would be a full blown trial. That's the situation you are in now and luckily it's for minimal charges rather than murder.

A concealed gun does not give you the right to avoid an @ss kicking. It doesn't matter if said @ss kicking was right or wrong. He should have left the party before the situation escalated.

At least, that is my understanding of what the courts and the case law says.

I believe I know the club where he received his CHP training. There are a lot of fine people there but there's only so much you can teach in a 3+ hour night class.

There are other advanced classes taught in Virginia which focus more on the laws and when it is appropriate to use deadly force. Some are taught by lawyers. I don't recall the company off hand but IIFC one such course is taught at the Holiday Inn in Fairfax. I think proshooter may have similar instruction outside of Richmond. I know his CHP class has more 'use of deadly force training' than others I have heard about.

You say that your friend was severly abused, was this a verbal abuse. You also say that he was assaulted, there are many way's to assault a person. How was he assualted and was he hurt in any way by this assault. Did he in fact have to be taken to hospital or was he a walking wounded. You have left out some very important information and I will not render any type of opinion on this post untill all questions are completed.
Bill

I think I smell BS. No offense, if your friend's plight is real, but lets see some proof. This sounds like an internet forwards to me after re-reading it.

Coupled with this being your first post here, and no follow-up from you so far, I think you are just spreading propaganda to further a cause which I never support regardless of whether or not I agree with the core issue.

There was another young fellow who posted on here, Daniel I think, who said he was arrested for having his gun locked in a case in his back seat.

Much as what was said to him here, I say to this, and that is that the details of the situation will never be known to us, and likely never known to an un-biased party who would be able to present a clear and factual recounting of the actual events.

Therefore something must have happened to promote the sentence he received because while I do from time to time borrow tin foil hats from GS78 and others here, I don't believe the judicial system will be as heavy handed as to consider a case like this without some form of motive for the DA entertaining prosecuting it.

If nothing else, count on their egos, because a DA would not prosecute a case which he could not make, as nobody likes to lose.

Just my honest opinion.

The similarities between/within the responses here makes me warm and fuzzy under my tin foil hat (thanks GS, fits nice too .

It is official, We are a bunch of disecting, detail oriented, fact gathering, question asking, BS sniffing group from Missouri (the "show me" state) if there ever was one...note i did not say "cynical" as i believe that we are not, just some what skeptical,... & none of this makes "Albert Shank" a bad person, nor unwelcome...but it does set the stage that if you are going to show up an try to get everyone hackles up, we are going to do a little Q&A to start...

I am proud to belong and take part in this forum.
Thanks again Rick!

Also never forget, that everyone who shows up, is not necessarily there to help

ASSUMPTION ALERT: I am assuming this guy is on the up-and-up and has relayed a true story.

Yet again I am conflicted.

1. We were not at this "party" so its hard to speculate on intent to harm vs. machismo.
2. I disagree with the poster that stated I can not use my carry weapon to avoid an @$$kicking. We had 3 thugs come to our neighborhood and attack a couple out for a morning walk (because they thought it would be fun), killed the husband and put the wife in intensive care. That's an @$$kicking.
3. If my reading of the pro-gun literature is correct, most altercations are stopped with the display of a firearm with NO discharge which is what appears to have happened in this case.
4. Since this never went to trial we have no idea how a jury would find so its possible he was well within his legal right to perform the actions he did (multiple assailants, fear for life or bodily harm).
5. I carry almost every place I am legally allowed so saying that the situation (college party) warranted leaving the gun at home I don't think is correct. Obviously he needed it.
6. I think the mistake he made (according to your writing) is "He did not point the weapon at the assailants, nor did he threaten to fire on them. He merely wanted to let these thugs know he was armed for self-defense." As one of the other posters mentioned, once you go gun you need to threaten and state clearly you are in fear of your life.

This is a sad situation and I hope none of us are ever put into one.

USMCGunner wrote:He brandished his firearm; legally speaking and did not use it.

Just for clarification, you cannot "brandish, legally".

Brandishing (18.2-282, COV) itself is a criminal act. The lawful display of a firearm is exempt if the person is "engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense". In other words, if its excusable or justifiable, then its not brandishing.

Aside from that, please refer to my legal disclaimer in the signature below.

Viiball...
Totally with you up until #5...

"5. I carry almost every place I am legally allowed so saying that the situation (college party) warranted leaving the gun at home I don't think is correct. Obviously he needed it."

"Legal" is one thing... but i am sure you have heard of "Dead Right"... i.e. as a pedestrian you almost always have the right of way, that does not mean you can safely walk into speeding traffic...in this case, if he had to carry to go to a party, perhaps not going would have been a better choice, and upon review of the "facts"... it seems to me to be a 10K mistake on the "young friends" part... which on some levels, was a cheap price to pay vs. some of the possiblities

same same here...

and i am ALL ABOUT firearm rights, but with those rights comes ultimate responsiblity...

carry on brother!

BluemontGlock wrote:Viiball...
Totally with you up until #5...

and i am ALL ABOUT firearm rights, but with those rights comes ultimate responsiblity...!

You are probably right. I can see where there are some situations that its either stay home or don't carry. College party, drinking, good looking girls..WHY WASN'T I INVITED?

viiiball wrote:You are probably right. I can see where there are some situations that its either stay home or don't carry. College party, drinking, good looking girls..WHY WASN'T I INVITED?

I think it's because of your scary gun

viiiball wrote:2. I disagree with the poster that stated I can not use my carry weapon to avoid an @$$kicking. We had 3 thugs come to our neighborhood and attack a couple out for a morning walk (because they thought it would be fun), killed the husband and put the wife in intensive care. That's an @$$kicking.

No that is murder and attempted murder. It's also a disparity of force situation with unknown attackers so deadly force starts to become a viable option depending on the circumstances.

Obviously, I wasn't at that party. I have been to plenty of college parties though. I can't think of a single time where deadly force was necessary to stop a fist fight. In the OPs case, it may have been two against one, but there was still (I presume) a room full of people to help end the conflict without having to resort to deadly force or the threat of deadly force.

Your 3 thug story brings up an interesting problem. With those types of situations, by the time deadly force is justified, it may already be too late to act. I guess that's where rule 1 of a gun fight comes in to play: '.... bring all your friends who have guns'. ie: Arm the wife also.

This is an interesting discussion and I certainly hope I can avoid being put into a similar situation because there really isn't any good option or outcome.

Disparity of Force not a Defense by Itself: http://www.virginia1774.org/Page6.html

""viiiball wrote:
You are probably right. I can see where there are some situations that its either stay home or don't carry. College party, drinking, good looking girls..WHY WASN'T I INVITED?

I think it's because of your scary gun """


You guys make my evening!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAH!