Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Hey folks,
I am looking for some advice on long range shooting accessories. I feel like long range shooting is a mix of science and art. Due to being so new and learning, I think I will need to rely on the science a bit more as I develop the art. However, I am a minimalist... meaning I want to carry as little as possible, but still have the right tools for the job.

I have been doing some research and I am seeing all kinds of cool and geeked out electronics. I feel like if I bought "everything", I'll end up toting 20 lbs of gear with me to the range or out into the mountains. Being that I am disabled and have trouble walking, once I feel like I am ready to go into the field, I am going to want a light rifle and just a few things to help me place a shoot.

I am not sure that I want to compromise on the quality for affordability. I am willing to spend a few dollars to get quality, accurate tools. I have a rifle that is good for close to a mile. I want tools that will match the firearm.

The information I feel is critical is:
Range (yards)
Elevation (feet)
Slope Angle (degrees)
Temp (F)
Pressure (inches of mercury)
Humidity (% sat)

I am looking at a Leica Rangemaster CRF 2400-R (preferred) or CRF 2700-B and a Kestrel 5700 Elite.

All that said, what do you all think? Am I over doing it? Wrong stuff? More affordable options that work just as good or better?

Thanks for the help.
Spaz

I'll do some checking Mark but don't have any advice off the top of my head.

Where are you shooting regularly where your out past a few hundred yards? I think until your 600 plus a lot of those devices may not be necessary. Keep in mind I'm not an expert.

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Jon wrote:I'll do some checking Mark but don't have any advice off the top of my head.

Where are you shooting regularly where your out past a few hundred yards? I think until your 600 plus a lot of those devices may not be necessary. Keep in mind I'm not an expert.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

I joined Peacemaker National Training Center. They have 100, 200, 300, 500, 1000 and 1250. I am also going to plan a hunting trip to SD for Big Horn and Elk. You can have a target out 1500 yards on the open plains. I doubt I would even try past 1000, though.

Someone pointed me to the SIG KILO 2400 ABS. Basically does everything the Leica and the Kestrel can do, but in 1 smaller, lighter package. Only down side is, it cost twice as much as the rifle. So if I go that route, it may be awhile before I have it.

MarcSpaz wrote:The information I feel is critical is:
Range (yards)
Elevation (feet)
Slope Angle (degrees)
Temp (F)
Pressure (inches of mercury)
Humidity (% sat)

and i mean this in the friendliest way possible... prove it to yourself.

go bring up 2 windows in JBM ballistics, and feed reasonable data into the calculator. What if I think it's 50 degrees and it really is 60. Does that move my solution 1" 1' 1 yard?

We're not in the rockies, so a few 2-4 thousand feet is about your max elevation change, and your guess should be within 1000. So how does that change the solution.

I'd run most of those numbers, and then my browser shat itself. Most of your environmental factors don't matter much typically 0.3 MOA or less, some as little as 1" @ 1000.

Check the weather report before you leave the house, and I bet you get environmental to < 0.3 MIL contribution for $0 invested.

Range and wind are much larger contributions to the solution. Wind you have to learn to read. Until you move to unknown distance ranges, then range is well known. Most competitions don't allow LRF, so you'll have to learn range estimation too. And if your environment tool is built into your LRF, then you probably can't have it on the course.

so for return on investment are you better off with some $1200 tool, or a few cases of ammo for more practice? or a nice 22 rimfire trainer and like 20,000 rounds of practice ammo?

you can pick up a Kestral for environment for under $200 less if you shop used on one of the forums, the LRF is where the higher costs are.

Pretty much my thinking too. I would put more money into a (as good as money allow) MIL scope that can help you do range estimation. I vaguely remember from what they teach us in red army 30 years ago, but we used the PSL scope and a bit of math.

If wife would not kick my ass, I would get this. Romanian product.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrwYMynnIa4

jdonovan wrote:and i mean this in the friendliest way possible... prove it to yourself.

go bring up 2 windows in JBM ballistics, and feed reasonable data into the calculator. What if I think it's 50 degrees and it really is 60. Does that move my solution 1" 1' 1 yard?

We're not in the rockies, so a few 2-4 thousand feet is about your max elevation change, and your guess should be within 1000. So how does that change the solution.

I'd run most of those numbers, and then my browser shat itself. Most of your environmental factors don't matter much typically 0.3 MOA or less, some as little as 1" @ 1000.

I gave this a go. It looks like the colder it is, the more sensitive the accuracy of the variables are.

These are the numbers I ran (assuming 50% humidity).
Set #1 Set #2
Elv - 1700 Elv - 700
Temp - 32 Temp - 42
BP - 28.5 BP - 29
Drop - 306" Drop - 304"

Difference = 2" @ 1,000 yards

Set #3 Set #4
Elv - 1700 Elv - 700
Temp - 75 Temp - 85
BP - 28.5 BP - 29
Drop - 292.28" Drop - 292.09"

Difference = 0.19" @ 1,000 yards (basically nothing)

The 1,000 yard targets at PNTC vary from 10" to 18". I guess even at the most extreme temp swing from set 1 to set 4 is only a 14". So, if I don't completely booger my job, the math is close enough for MOM close to year round.

jdonovan wrote:Check the weather report before you leave the house, and I bet you get environmental to < 0.3 MIL contribution for $0 invested.

I have been shooting places where I have mobile internet, so I have been using my phone while I am there to get weather specs. I guess if I am going somewhere there is no internet, I can check ahead of time and see how it goes. I have a slope angle and elevation finder on my phone, and neither of them require network connectivity.

jdonovan wrote:Range and wind are much larger contributions to the solution. Wind you have to learn to read. Until you move to unknown distance ranges, then range is well known. Most competitions don't allow LRF, so you'll have to learn range estimation too. And if your environment tool is built into your LRF, then you probably can't have it on the course.

I have been practicing ranging targets with my scope... guessing/reading wind is an art that I want to / must develop.

jdonovan wrote:so for return on investment are you better off with some $1200 tool, or a few cases of ammo for more practice? or a nice 22 rimfire trainer and like 20,000 rounds of practice ammo?

you can pick up a Kestral for environment for under $200 less if you shop used on one of the forums, the LRF is where the higher costs are.

So, this kind of hit home for me with regard to the whole science vs. art concept. I want to get to the point that I can rely on my senses more than gadgets. This information wasn't available on demand 100+ years ago, but men were still making these shots. I almost feel like it would be in my best interest to build a DOPE chart and work off that.