Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Tax season's usually the one time a year where I can afford to spend SOME money on a firearm. This year I'm looking to get something I don't have.

So the question is, if you didn't have either, would you buy a 1911 or an AR/M4?

In both scenarios I'm looking for somewhat inexpensive solutions. I'd like to keep it under $800.

As far as AR's I'm considering either the M&P15 or the Colt M4. I'd like to hear why one or the other would be optimal, or other suggestions in the price range.

The 1911 situation is a bit more complicated. I don't need another carry gun but I'd like the option all the same. So I'm torn between looking at fullsize or compact version of the 1911. I'm particularly interested in responses regarding various $4-500 1911's and those that are closer to my $800 limit.


In either case I'd like to have something that's going to work, obviously. But moreover I'd like to hear which you would buy if you didn't have either, and what you would suggest.


Thanks, Jon

Myself, I would get a 1911, and one as close to original specs as possible.

But, then, I want a 1911, and don't have much interest in an AR.

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Depends on what you're needing.

If you have a good rifle, but an okay pistol? 1911...

If you have neither? AR....

Always start with a rifle, and work your way backwards... Plus? COOL ACCESSORIES! #MagpulFanboy

Reverenddel wrote:Always start with a rifle, and work your way backwards

Please elaborate on this thought.

I have what is referred to as an "Officer Model" 1911 style pistol. Citadel (made by Rock Island, owned by Armscor) 3.5" bbl, 7+1. Good solid gun. Tried to put +P ammo through it once and damn near broke it. The slide came back so hard it flipped out the firing pin retainer at the rear of the slide and the pin and spring shot back in my face. Scared the crap out of me. Stripped it down to check for cracks or other damage. Seeing none, it's back in service and continues to be flawless. I do keep an eye on it though.

I don't have an AR, so that will likely be my next purchase. Looking at the same two (M&P and Colt) but haven't decided yet. Can get either one at the Rural King in Front Royal for a little discount around $100 less than other places.

Probably by the logic that the sidearm is to make your way to your rifle.

Okay... you asked for it. Just remember that. LOL

So, I would go (and did go) with the AR15/M4 first. I already had other pistols (as you mentioned) and I wanted a tacticool weapon. Not just for the cool factor, but for a practical defense and small game weapon. Its been proven time and time again that AR platform rifles, particularly chambered in a 5.56/0.223, is one of the best all-around close range weapons. You're not gonna drop a 1,000 lb bear with it (at least not easily), but for man sized soft targets or smaller, you will own the FOV from zero to 300 yards.

Parts, accessories, and ammo are all cheap and plentiful. The AR is the Mr. Potato Head of guns. Personalized options are endless. Yes, they will all look similar, but you can make it comfortable and tailored to you.

My problem is going to be in brand selection. I am a huge SIG Sauer fan, but the entry level stuff is $1200 and it just goes up from there. I have a $650 MP15 Sport. Its okay, but I had to machine the upper and do some repairs to make it work... and I bought it new. I was very disappointed and if it wasn't for the fact that I got it for my son on his birthday, it would have gone back. Instead I gigged up up and fixed it for him.

Also, I don't know that I would trust the MP15 Sport to save my life. I just feel like I can't trust it after having to do machine work to a weapon that left the factory broken, knowing that someone QC'ed it and said it was good. Plus, the cheaper guns typically don't have a forward assist or a dust cover. For a range toy, that doesn't matter much. If you plan on using it outside in real-world applications, they make life better by helping keep the weapon's internals free of dirt and keeping it running.

I have zero experience with Colt rifles.

If you do go with the 1911, I wouldn't buy one for less than $800. I have owned a couple 1911's that were $400-$500 and I had all kinds of issues, ranging from trigger failure, failure to feed, and a slide cracking.

I would recommend Kimber, Colt or Springfield Armory. All of their entry 1911's are available for under $1,000. Some models are right at $800. I currently own a SA 1911A1. It was $800 and shoots like a champ... an $800 champ... but a champ none the less.

My next 1911 will be a Kimber. Either a Master Carry Custom or a Raptor II, unless a lawsuit I am working on gets settled... Then I'll buy a Custom Elite!

Jon , You don't have to break the bank on either of these. Didn't we shoot several of my 1911's a couple of months ago ? I think we also shot one of my Bushmasters too. All cost less than $800 each. I just bought a Ruger model 8500 for $749 just because I wanted a Ruger AR. I also thought it is a pretty good deal. I think the Rock Island 1911 in 9mm is one of the best buy's in a 1911 frame. Mine is a TCM 22 / 9mm (less than $600 ) and is my favorite pistol I have.

MarcSpaz wrote:Okay... you asked for it. Just remember that. LOL

So, I would go (and did go) with the AR15/M4 first. I already had other pistols (as you mentioned) and I wanted a tacticool weapon. Not just for the cool factor, but for a practical defense and small game weapon. Its been proven time and time again that AR platform rifles, particularly chambered in a 5.56/0.223, is one of the best all-around close range weapons. You're not gonna drop a 1,000 lb bear with it (at least not easily), but for man sized soft targets or smaller, you will own the FOV from zero to 300 yards.

Parts, accessories, and ammo are all cheap and plentiful. The AR is the Mr. Potato Head of guns. Personalized options are endless. Yes, they will all look similar, but you can make it comfortable and tailored to you.

My problem is going to be in brand selection. I am a huge SIG Sauer fan, but the entry level stuff is $1200 and it just goes up from there. I have a $650 MP15 Sport. Its okay, but I had to machine the upper and do some repairs to make it work... and I bought it new. I was very disappointed and if it wasn't for the fact that I got it for my son on his birthday, it would have gone back. Instead I gigged up up and fixed it for him.

Also, I don't know that I would trust the MP15 Sport to save my life. I just feel like I can't trust it after having to do machine work to a weapon that left the factory broken, knowing that someone QC'ed it and said it was good. Plus, the cheaper guns typically don't have a forward assist or a dust cover. For a range toy, that doesn't matter much. If you plan on using it outside in real-world applications, they make life better by helping keep the weapon's internals free of dirt and keeping it running.

I have zero experience with Colt rifles.

If you do go with the 1911, I wouldn't buy one for less than $800. I have owned a couple 1911's that were $400-$500 and I had all kinds of issues, ranging from trigger failure, failure to feed, and a slide cracking.

I would recommend Kimber, Colt or Springfield Armory. All of their entry 1911's are available for under $1,000. Some models are right at $800. I currently own a SA 1911A1. It was $800 and shoots like a champ... an $800 champ... but a champ none the less.

My next 1911 will be a Kimber. Either a Master Carry Custom or a Raptor II, unless a lawsuit I am working on gets settled... Then I'll buy a Custom Elite!

I appreciate your response, experiences and advice Mark. And while I've heard a few others that share your sentiment, the overwhelming majority of people I'm hearing from are saying the opposite.

I've got this thread going on two other forums and am reading reviews from other sources as well. Most are saying that it's possible to get a reliable version of either platform for sub $600.

Of course in your case with the M&P15 it sounds like it was a QC issue from the factory, and we all know that can happen with anything. That's also the reason why if I go the AR route I'm buying a complete rifle for my first, I want a warranty.

Snakester wrote:Jon , You don't have to break the bank on either of these. Didn't we shoot several of my 1911's a couple of months ago ? I think we also shot one of my Bushmasters too. All cost less than $800 each. I just bought a Ruger model 8500 for $749 just because I wanted a Ruger AR. I also thought it is a pretty good deal. I think the Rock Island 1911 in 9mm is one of the best buy's in a 1911 frame. Mine is a TCM 22 / 9mm (less than $600 ) and is my favorite pistol I have.

Yes Randy we did. You let me try out your TCM (with the 9mm barrel), a 1911 Taurus .45, one of your SKS's and your Bushmaster AR. Again, thanks for that.

If I go the 1911 route I definitely want it in .45, especially after feeling how mild the recoil was on yours. It just seems "proper" for a 1911, even moreso a first one.

I'm with you on the AR, I feel like I can probably find something decent for $800 or less, quite possibly a fair amount less.

I guess my response is from getting screwed so many times. You ever here the expression "If it wasn't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all."? That's me. I'm sure people get lucky with inexpensive guns. I don't.

The only inexpensive gun I ever bought that wasn't a POS was a Norinco China Sport 1911a in 1992.

EDIT: Quality AR for $600 or less? I am having a hard time believing that when a quality trigger is $250-$300. Never mind the rest of the gun.

Well, I'll be an outlier. I would recommend the AR. You can get a fine entry-level AR for about $700 (Ruger, S&W), less at a good gun show. I know that the Field & Stream store in Charlottesville is clearing out SIG M400s (including the Romeo 4 red dot sight) for $810. There are less expensive and more practical carry pistols than a 1911, but every family should have at least one AR.

For 1911s, I think anything made by Armscor/Rock Island is junk (my opinion, ymmv). At the under $800 range, you can get a Ruger for around $725, a Remington R1 for a little less, and even a Kimber for about $750 (same store in Cville).

Locally I'm seeing...

SR1911 and R1's right at $700 and then your RIA's and other Phillo 1911's between $5-600.

M&P15, Colt M4, Bushmaster XM15 and Rugger AR556 right at $700, and then your DPMS, Diamondback and some company called Windham Weapons for $550-600.


I think I'm starting to lean towards the AR but still have not made my mind up yet.


Anyone know what the difference in the Colt M4 and M4+ for $50 more is? Also what about this Windham company? I'm seeing it listed even at some of the pickiest local stores regarding selling cheap guns, but I've never heard of them.

What ever you buy , no matter what you pay for it , I know where you can break it in !!!

We need to get together again soon regardless. But maybe I'll have made my purchase by then.

I have a DPMS AR in 5.56 and have heard many not give it very good reviews, however the one I have has been 100% since day one. It is a basic AR, and runs as expected. The only thing I've been told about buying the Colt AR's is they use a slightly larger pins that attach the upper and lower together. Apparently everyone else uses the Mil Spec size pins. As for 1911's I am a fanboy, and have been for years, I owned pistols before high powered rifles for many years. I always has a good 22 rifle, and a 12 gauge shotgun, but pistols were my thing. I had several 1911's, and some of the less expensive ones back in the day the Thompson comes to mind, had softer internal parts that had to be replaced if you ran them hard, but everything else decent was fine. If the price tag didn't matter I would order a custom, but they are way high these days. Anyway, a decent 1911 in 45 is very hard to beat for a great everyday pistol. For Concealed Carry I would recommend at least the Commander (Compact) size, these generally have the 4.25" barrel and a full size frame so you keep the 8 + 1 mag capacity, but if you are an average or larger size person a full size is not a difficult carry either. I'm just 5'5" and I can still carry a full size 1911 with a decent holster. I know this might not answer your question, but maybe provides a little more to think on. Like Marc said, once I did get an AR I love it, but I already had the 1911. Plus prior to getting a high power rifle, I use a Contender pistol chambered in very high power pistol, wildcat, and rifle cartridges, so I could still hunt anything in North America.

Windham is the Bushmaster guys who got left behind in Maine when Remington bought their company and moved it down South. It's a well-made rifle.

Every DPMS I've opened a bolt on (probably over 100 by now) has felt like the inside of the upper was lined with sandpaper.

FiremanBob wrote:Windham is the Bushmaster guys who got left behind in Maine when Remington bought their company and moved it down South. It's a well-made rifle.

Every DPMS I've opened a bolt on (probably over 100 by now) has felt like the inside of the upper was lined with sandpaper.

I owned 3 DPMS rifles in one year. They all suffered catastrophic failure and were a 100% loss. In total, in one year, I lost over $6,500. I bought one used. Bought one new after that. The last was an exchange for #2. DPMS blamed the ammo and improper lube... as far as I'm concerned, DPMS doesn't exist.

Yea the DPMS is one brand I have heard a fair amount of mixed reviews so I'm probably going to stay away from their entry level "Oracle".

Another inexpensive but seemingly good value I've been researching that seems to get mostly positive reviews is the DB15. I'm not too big on their pistols but from everything I've seen they make a pretty good rifle.

Beyond that is still the M&P15, Ruger and Colt.

I ran across this site just today as a recommendation from another forum, I had never heard of them but they have some SMOKING deals on AR's, especially their "package" deals. https://www.cdnnsports.com/

Nuke-Bomber- Tank- Rifle-Shotgun-Pistol- Knife-Hands.

In that order. HAHAH

Randy I'd love to hear what you think of your recently acquired Ruger AR if you've gotten the chance to shoot it....