Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Ok so the woman loves to shoot, and she has been really hinting towards a carry gun of her own. She loves my 1911 and my .45ACP sub compact, but admittedly(she and I) the recoil on both of those are a bit much for her. She is like 4'11" and 120, so small wrists. And as always I was told, "you're the gun guy you know what to get me, and what's good." Shes shot .380, 9mm, 10mm, 40, and 357sig. She was most comfortable with the .380 and 9mm judging by posture and shot grouping. So I have narrowed it down to these for choices, I just can't decide, I need some help/ constructive advice on this one.
Bersa Thunder or FireStorm .380, which I have shot personally and I love it true CCW and damn accurate
Wlather P/PP/PPK .380
CZ52/54 9mm
Makarov 9mm
Polish P-64 9mm

Assuming she can handle racking the slide on a small semi-auto and shoot it well, I recommend you take a look at the Glock 42/43 (.380/9mm) and the Smith & Wesson M&P Shield in 9mm. These are good reliable small semi-autos with great 3rd party support for accessories such as holsters. Find a way to let her shoot the contenders first and then let her make her own choice.

Doesn't 1911 come in 9mm?

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Walther PPK is a great choice, but I can't find a new one in the supply chain.

Bersa is large and heavy to carry.

Glock 42 is a lighter, easier to carry, and better trigger than the Bersa.

Glock 42 and S&W M&P9 Shield become good candidates if she's comfortable shooting the 9mm.

She might also try the Walther CCP. Its unique grip profile might be the most comfortable for her hand.

In any case, I recommend that she load with Polycase (Ruger) ARX ammo. It has about 20% less recoil than lead hollowpoints, but the same terminal ballistic performance.

Well I hate to be the one to hurt feelings, but she does not like Glock Brand Glocks. And she has shot all but the Polish P64. She likes that Walther style gun.

Yes they do make the 1911 in 9mm, it's just to large of a frame for her.

She has not shot the M&P Shield series. And if I recall what she said all she would want is a laser or laser grips.... But y'all are right it is her decision, so I'll just make her choose.

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tangodown wrote:Well I hate to be the one to hurt feelings, but she does not like Glock Brand Glocks. And she has shot all but the Polish P64. She likes that Walther style gun.

Yes they do make the 1911 in 9mm, it's just to large of a frame for her.

She has not shot the M&P Shield series. And if I recall what she said all she would want is a laser or laser grips.... But y'all are right it is her decision, so I'll just make her choose.

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You might want to have her try out a Kimber Pro Carry II (9mm) if you can find one. I've got one that seems to me to be both small and easy to manage, but then my hands are pretty big.

I've also got an American Tactical Titan Stainless, 3" barrel that's very well-behaved even though it's a .45ACP. Don't know if they can be had in a 9mm or not.,

We have a Kimber 9mm in the shop. It's considerably heavier than the polymer-framed pistols.

No hurt feelings here. There is a quality tier at which all the major polymer-frame brands stand: Glock, Walther, S&W, SIG, FN, Springfield, HK. The main difference is how well they fit the owner's hand, and whichever feels best is the right choice. The Glock grip profile is not for everyone.

The Walther CCP has the advantage of being a little softer shooting due to its unusual gas-delayed blowback design. But it is very tricky to field-strip for cleaning and reassemble.

My wife loves all of our 1911's. He favorite is her Sig .22 LR . She also likes our TCM .22 / 9mm Rock Island. Our .40 and .45 are just a little much for her. This past Saturday we got to shoot a RIA Mapps 9mm and really liked it . We may have one in our near future !

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FiremanBob wrote:We have a Kimber 9mm in the shop. It's considerably heavier than the polymer-framed pistols.

No hurt feelings here. There is a quality tier at which all the major polymer-frame brands stand: Glock, Walther, S&W, SIG, FN, Springfield, HK. The main difference is how well they fit the owner's hand, and whichever feels best is the right choice. The Glock grip profile is not for everyone.

The Walther CCP has the advantage of being a little softer shooting due to its unusual gas-delayed blowback design. But it is very tricky to field-strip for cleaning and reassemble.

That was her complaint was the grip posture on the gun, it was hard for her to get a firm grip on the weapon. I blame her small hands, she said it was the double stack. I still say midget carny hands...... meh tomato; tomatto

As far as grips go, most hand guns have inter-changeable/ after market grip pads, or side grips so it really all comes down to manageable caliber/ recoil, single stack, easy of break down, and reliability. I think that's why I went with those above mentioned selections. 9mm with RIP ammo is a ruthless projectile, as is the under rated .380. Recoil is a joke even in a Walther or a Makarov, and to clean and maintenance them is so easy my 11 year old nephew can do it. I would sling her up with a Sig or something more modern, but 1 I am not home(NY state) most of the year and 2 she needs something basic, simple, and easy to use and maintain.

This has been a good thread thus far, yall have pointed out a few things I have overlooked, well under appreciated when looking for a CCW for someone else who has a small stature.

Snakester wrote:My wife loves all of our 1911's. He favorite is her Sig .22 LR . She also likes our TCM .22 / 9mm Rock Island. Our .40 and .45 are just a little much for her. This past Saturday we got to shoot a RIA Mapps 9mm and really liked it . We may have one in our near future !

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As does mine, but the weapon is huge on her. I have a full frame 5" in .45. The recoils isn't as bad as my 3" Subcompact 24/7 Millennium Pro .45 for her thou. That thing about hits her in the head on recoil, because of the sort ass barrel(and her carny hands and wrists LOL). That and its only good till like 15/17 yards for decent accuracy.

I know I know I like Taurus guns...... swear to God I have never had an issue with either of my Taurus firearms. 1911s got probably close to 13000 rounds down the barrel, and is 100% reliable and accurate. And I have only hand 1 stove pipe, and 1 fail to load (depressed projectile) in its service to me. The 24/7 has got like 3 to 4000 down it, and its still as sold as the day I bought it.

It might be a good idea to read some realistic reviews of that RIP ammo.

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WRW wrote:It might be a good idea to read some realistic reviews of that RIP ammo.

Good advice. Stick with the major US manufacturers of proven defensive ammo such as Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST.

ARX is not RIP - it's a completely different design.. I do not recommend RIP. Look for the reviews of Polycase ARX.

Funny that you bring up the Polycase ARX, Bob. I recently purchased a box, on a whim. I had never heard of it. I started researching it after I bought it, and have been meaning to start a thread to ask opinions on it.

Glad to see a recommendation on the product.

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FiremanBob;
The OP seemed to have the impression that the RIP round is a "ruthless projectile". I have no opinion on your recommendation.

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FiremanBob wrote:ARX is not RIP - it's a completely different design.. I do not recommend RIP. Look for the reviews of Polycase ARX.

like this one? http://www.homedefensegun.net/polycase-arx-inceptor/

Chasbo00 wrote:

FiremanBob wrote:ARX is not RIP - it's a completely different design.. I do not recommend RIP. Look for the reviews of Polycase ARX.

like this one? <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.homedefensegun.net/polycase- ... r/</a><!-- m -->

I have an opinion now. Depends on tumbling to achieve similar permanent wound channel?

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Frankly, I'm in love with my Stoeger Cougar 8000F (9mm).
It's an all metal compact Baretta made at their plant in Turkey.
It holds 15+1 with a standard magazine.
I'm now carrying second one.
I gave my first to my daughter when she graduated college last year and she's quite happy with it.
The Cougar is somewhat smaller and lighter than my 1911 and has twice the number of cartridges with close the the same muzzle energy.
Being all metal it's heaver than a plastic framed firearm so the kick is, IMHO, more manageable.

Doesn't depend on tumbling. The flutes in the bullet act like an impeller, creating a hydraulic shock that expands the wound channel so that it's similar to a hollowpoint.

There are several reviews of ARX including a comparison of 6 different unusual rounds including RIP on thefirearmblog:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/?s=polycase

Re: ARX.

The manufacturers (and marketers) claim should be measured against common sense.

FiremanBob wrote:The flutes in the bullet act like an impeller, creating a hydraulic shock that expands the wound channel so that it's similar to a hollowpoint.

The twist rate of most common defensive pistols ranges from about 1:10" to about 1:18". That means the bullet will be rotating one time for every 10" to 18" of forward travel. Hardly a flying-blender-of-death effect. More likely, it is a high-velocity hydrodynamic effect, similar to the old THV round.

Extra-high-velocity, light-for-caliber rounds have been the "next best thing" since I could stand around reading the gun magazines in the store (anybody remember THV, Geco BAT, blah, blah). Historically, they tended to produce devastating, but shallow wounds, dumping all their energy near the surface and not penetrating. These light-for-caliber rounds come and go (and new ones show up) while police and military continue to buy ammo in traditional weights and velocities, made by companies producing bullets in steadily improving but relatively traditional form factors.