Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Interested in hearing your opinion.

Often wondered, why should I buy a firearm through a FFL dealer? If I do, BATFE is informed and the purchase goes in their database. When the gun-grabbing really begins in earnest you have to presume the FED will show up on your doorstep and demand the weapon in question. If the purchase is through a private transaction it isn't in any database so the theory is they won't show up if they don't know you have it.

There are a couple of ways this can backfire. First, they go to the person who they think owns the registered weapon, he shows them the bill of sale from the private transaction sending them to your door. Second, if you have any FFL purchases, they 'll just assume you have more they don't know about and show up at your door anyway, demanding to see what you have.

There are several other scenarios as well, but in the interest of brevity, lets just presume that no one lies to protect a private purchaser or their own stash.

I imagine that one benefit of an FFL purchase is that your firearm may come with a warranty.

In a private sale, all that is really required is that the seller honestly believes the buyer to be legally able to possess a firearm.

So, the thing to do, is never buy from an FFL, and never sign a bill of sale. That protects you, as a buyer, from government tyranny. Well, to some degree, anyway.

On the other hand, as a seller, you may not be comfortable with that. I would suggest, though, that some discretion can still be exercised. For example, if the potential buyer shows up in a $500 car that's sporting $5000 wheels, has excessive jewelry in his mouth, and is wearing clothing 5 sizes too big, with the waistband of his pants at knee level, you probably would be ill advised to sell him a butter knife. You certainly wouldn't want to sell him your gun.

Also, were I inclined to sell a gun, I might request to see an ID from the potential buyer. Likely, if he can't have a gun, he'll be hesitant to show his ID to you, especially if you appear ready to record his name and address.

Lastly, if you're that concerned about it, you can do background checks online, for a small fee. Work the fee into the sale price. That way, there is no record of why you are checking, you have fulfilled any legal and moral obligation, and by not keeping records, you may help to protect someone elses Constitutional rights.

In short, I prefer private sales over FFL sales.

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I'm sure someone will either prove me wrong and/or expand upon this but, I'm pretty sure that the BATFE isn't supposed to create or maintain a record of NICS transactions.
Since they all go through the VASP here in Virginia, I don't know if they keep records of checks.
Be aware that running a NICS check doesn't mean that a gun was actually sold.
Many states use NICS as a way to verify that their citizens with concealed carry permits/licenses are still legally allowed to have firearms. (No one seems to mention this when citing NICS annual transactions.)
Also, theoretically the ONLY record of a person buying a firearm from an FFL is the form 4473 that was filled out to provide the information for the NICS check. (I don't know what happens with the new computerized NICS checks.)
And, if a firearm actually changes hands, a log entry in the FFL's bound book.
IIRC these 4473 forms and the bound book stay with the FFL until that FFL ceases to do business and then they are turned over to the BATFE to be archived.

In other words, again theoretically, here in Virginia no one is maintaining a record of what firearms you own. There is a record at your local gun store of your purchases but that's it.

BTW: If anyone's interested ANYONE can download the eForm 4473 application and user manuals if they so desire at : https://www.atf.gov/firearms/applicatio ... 3-download

For the 4473, maintenance is 5 years if a NICS inquiry is made and the sale is NOT completed. 20 years if the sale is completed.

It sounds like the NICS only provides a number NTN - NICS Transaction Number - and is written on the 4473 form after the transaction is completed.

I wonder what happens when a sale is not made? Where would they record the NTN for that?

"For the 4473, maintenance is 5 years if a NICS inquiry is made and the sale is NOT completed. 20 years if the sale is completed."

If this is true, weapons I have bought back before I was 26 are free and clear. Correct? Holy crap! Do those idjuts in the guv'mint realize that some of us NEVER sell ANYTHING!?!?!?

What information is the FFL required to keep in his log? I've always assumed that a sale record would include brand, model, and serial number of the firearm sold, along with the name, address, and possibly social security number of the buyer. Without that information, it strikes me that the FFL log would be fairly pointless.

I also assume that the logs must be presented to ATF agents, upon demand. I could be wrong; I suppose that a subpoena or warrent might be required for demand of presentation.

But, if my assumptions are correct, it does seem that FFL logs would be a useful tool to any tyrant that wishes to engage in mass gun confiscation.

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@Rev, I expect that the year limitations are due to a compromise. If the sponsors of that piece of legislation had their way, I think that it would be indefinite, as opposed to 5 and 20 years.

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When they keep all phone calls, emails and web searches, I have no illusion that every transaction is recorded and stored forever.

SHMIV wrote:What information is the FFL required to keep in his log?

The copy of the the buyers, or perspective buyers 4473. For 99%+ of folks that would be a paper hard copy.

The bound book is to be sent to storage when the licensee surrenders the license. Information contained in the bound book includes the firearm description and name and address of the purchaser. When I was a CO licensee instant check information was maintained as a separate record and to be maintained for a number or years. I surrendered my license about 15 years ago do things have changed but at that time your SSN was not part of either record.
My bound book was supoened by a Federal Magistrate and I arrived in court without my bound book because under federal code at the time was that only ATF agents, lawyers and courts can examine bound books. The Magistrate and I had an interesting discussion with me boarding on contempt but I brought a copy of the code and a copy of my instant check records so all was good.

Lesson is if it is not written down it does not exist and spend time studying both federal and state code.

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For anyone who doesn't already know, you're already on a list. Avoiding an FFL isn't doing you any favors. Unless you make your own weapons and ammo out of raw materials, someone else buys your supplies and tools, and not a single living human being know what you do or have... you are on a list for being a firearms owner.

AND... you're probably on a bunch of other lists for a bunch of other reasons already anyway. You know, registered Republican or Independent, on a conservative leaning forum, own a car and the PD plate reader flagged you for driving in an area outside your normal pattern, etc.

Buy guns, ammo, NFA items and don't worry about it. When the confiscations start, I'm sure you could have a tragic boating accident and all the guns have been lost in the Atlantic.

MarcSpaz wrote:For anyone who doesn't already know, you're already on a list. Avoiding an FFL isn't doing you any favors. Unless you make your own weapons and ammo out of raw materials, someone else buys your supplies and tools, and not a single living human being know what you do or have... you are on a list for being a firearms owner.

AND... you're probably on a bunch of other lists for a bunch of other reasons already anyway. [size=150]You know, registered Republican or Independent, on a conservative leaning forum[/size], own a car and the PD plate reader flagged you for driving in an area outside your normal pattern, etc.

Buy guns, ammo, NFA items and don't worry about it. When the confiscations start, I'm sure you could have a tragic boating accident and all the guns have been lost in the Atlantic.

The thing that kills me..... when you read these reports on domestic terrorists, or all the propaganda regarding anti-2A blah blah..... yeah, it's always "right wing nut jobs", "right wing extremists", etc, etc.... Yet most of the deadly shootings or murderous actions/shootings in the country are perpetrated by left leaning folks. It baffles my mind. Hell, the guy who killed the reporter & cameraman on tv not too long ago was a KNOWN Obama voter. The guy at Umpqua was singling out Christians. The unaboomber was a socialist. How many of the shooters in Chicago & Baltimore in the last 7yrs voted for Mitt Romney..?!? It's pretty ridiculous in my opinion, at who is targeted by the anti gun propaganda versus who is actually adding to the gun murder numbers

BIG difference, the difference between a listing of "gun owner based on conjecture, innuendo, heresay", and hard copies of make, model, and serial number of each and every firearm in your possession.

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Not really. I can sell my private property at any time without their permission. They can come to my home all they want. If I don't have them, I don't have them.

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Thanks for the good discussion and lots of info. Think I may go talk to my local gun-shops and see what they have to say about all this.

I understand that I'm on a list. As a Navy veteran, I am enshrined in some storage box somewhere in the federal archives, and as a CHP holder I am further enshrined. It's probably near impossible not to be on a list somewhere.

Yep, You are on this list too: http://vagunforum.net/memberlist.php

I know for a fact that ATF went through a local FFL's book and collected the names of people who had purchased more than a certain number of firearms in a given amount of time.

dorminWS wrote:I know for a fact that ATF went through a local FFL's book and collected the names of people who had purchased more than a certain number of firearms in a given amount of time.

I have been flagged for the very same reason. Federal law doesn't limit the number of guns a person can buy in a given time frame. However, Federal statute 18 U.S.C. § 923(g)(3)(A) does require FFL's to report multiple sales of handguns to the ATF. The reason is most guns that were sold in the US as new, that have been used in crimes, started off in a straw purchase of multiple firearms. FFL's get audited to ensure compliance.

Multiple sales, btw, is defined as two or more weapons within a 5 day time period.

I'm not sure if the state's also provide information to the ATF. I would think they do, because if I wanted to stay off that radar screen, all I have to do is buy one gun at several stores. If I want 10 guns in one day, I can just go to 10 stores. BUT, again, I don't know.

MarcSpaz wrote:Multiple sales, btw, is defined as two or more weapons within a 5 day time period.

If you don't do this once a year, you're not doing enough to support the economy.

Guess that makes me guilty!