Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Howdy folks, now that I have had a chance to talk with my friends and family about it I thought I would post an incident that happened last Friday night (10.09.09) at the Starbucks in the Fair Lakes shopping center (across from Sakura, next to a deli) in Fairfax County, VA - sorry if it's kinda lengthy.

After grabbing dinner with my friends Kai, Erwin, and Erwin's wife Rochelle, we decided to go to Starbucks for some drinks. It was about 9:30PM when we arrived at the Starbucks, got some ice teas and took a table outside to relax and chat. Erwin mentioned to his wife that "Marcus sometimes conceal carries" and to rebuff her skepticism I showed her a holstered S&W 637 (.38 Chief Special with exposed hammer) - I had it in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster, never once did I draw it out of the holster, and before removing the whole set up from my pocket I made sure that there were no other people around. I returned it to my pocket, never once letting it out of my possession (it was/is loaded with 5 defensive rounds).

At 10:00PM the Starbucks employees locked up and were cleaning up inside. At around 10:15PM a white male, I would estimate 25-35 yrs old, and with a shaved head tried to get inside. Shaking the locked door he gave up and kicked the trash nearby. He then turned around, saw us, and without hesitation marched right up to us and said, "Alright, who wants to fight?!" followed by repeating "I'm going to f*ck one of you up tonight" and "I'm going to beat someone up." Naturally the first reaction Erwin and I had was to look at each other as if to say, "is this really happening???" my second reaction was that my heart rate skyrocketed! Erwin and I were seated on the outside seats so we were the closest to this guy and he kept sticking his face in ours, literally less than 6 inches away. This guy then started talking about how he had smashed several car windows this night (later confirmed by the police) and was going to keep breaking them, he made the ambiguous comment, "I've got a brother in Afghanistan fighting so that people like YOU can sit here and drink coffee" he also then made the comment "You probably think that Jason is crazy, but I'm military intelligence and can get out of jail in no time" - yes, the dumbass told us his name, at one point he reached over and swatted our cups (thankfully empty). Somewhere in the middle of his tirade I half stood to straighten out my pants and in doing so stuck my hand in my pocket. My fingers were ice cold, but I wrapped them around the grips of my snub-nose revolver. I had come to the realization that if this guy struck anyone of us it was full justification to draw, fire and defend. After I made this decision and had my hand on the gun my heart rate dropped considerably, it was still grossly elevated, but I definitely felt that I had re-established control should things get out of hand. Erwin of course saw me and knew exactly what my hand was doing in my pocket.

When I half stood to get my hand into my pocket more comfortably Jason spun on me and asked, "do you want to fight." I gave him a flat "No." Fortunately Jason left our table, but not before trying to smash the Starbucks window with his elbow. The Starbucks emplyees who must have witnessed some of this, hurriedly opened the door and let us in. No sooner had they relocked it than we saw Jason pick up a chair and try to throw it through the window! He then took off. Police showed up a few seconds later(apparently Starbucks had called it in) - I went out to give them a statement. By now 7 police cars had arrived and took off in the direction we indicated.

The officers began to search the wooded area behind Starbucks. My friends and I went to the edge of the parking lot to watch and after a few minutes of the police searching we heard from the woods "F*CK YOUUUUU." Needless to say 7 cops took off in the direction of the holler and about ten minutes later they came out with Jason handcuffed.

Talking with Kai, Erwin, and Rochelle later on they all told me they were glad I was carrying that night. I was thankful that I did not have to draw and shoot, but was glad that 2 years ago I got into the hobby, got my CHP, and began to practice regularly at the range. I personally thought I would never need a gun in Fairfax County, especially in a well lit area like a Starbucks! The things I did not expect were how much my heart rate shot up, and also how cold my hands became, and also that I would ever have to draw from a seated position. One of my friends said, "but there were 3 of you" to which I replied that Jason was bigger than any of us, was standing to us seated, and as Erwin later explained, his bruised arms indcated he was probably high on some illegal substances.

I thank God that the situation turned out, in my estimation, in the most favorable/peaceable way.

Good job keeping your head! And thank you for sharing. I bet he moved away from your table because you scared him away. Bullies are usually chickens at heart. I think the sheer deterrant factor has to be the best part of carrying a weapon and its inspiring to hear it used well.

... good to hear that you never had to unholster your weapon and the situation de-escalated itself.

... I live less than 2miles from that location, frequent the Dick's in FL and the Walmart area often - always carrying either OC or CC. According to FCPD's site, there have been 3-4 criminal events (all violent, I am not including vandalism, car-smash/grabs, etc) every month this year.

... again glad that your encounter did not take a different turn - you should applaude yourself and your commitment to training.

I am very glad for you and your friends that the situation did not escalate further.

With that said, I am concerned. Your statement:

msk7a wrote: I had come to the realization that if this guy struck anyone of us it was full justification to draw, fire and defend.

may not be a tenable position in court. While I am certainly no attorney, I have some doubts that you would be able to articulate a viable self-defense position with the information given.

You may prevail, but I think there's some grey area that a jury/judge may consider not justified.

I'm just saying.....

ProShooter - not questioning you; simply seeking knowledge - your statement in response to OP's statement that had he or another person in his group been struck by the BG - did you mean that it would not/could not/may not hold in court as justifiable use of the firearm to protect?

If a person strikes another, in the state described above; that appears to me to be self-defense. I am aware that the response must also represent the action - however, from the OP it was described clearly that the guy was looking for a fight, and possibly under the influence of something.

Hope to never be in that situation, but every bit of intel/information from other's past experiences will help if any of us find ourselves in such a situation.

Thanks

Granted that this scumbag was bigger and probably hyped on drugs if you shot him it IMO could potentially be persued as excessive use of force. Its not a good situation.

Howdy,

Thanks for sharing, Marcus. It sounds like you were ready to engage, but you clearly kept your cool.

Some of the other posters are trying to offer helpful advice, but I think the only one who can make the decision regarding the use of deadly force is the one who is in that situation. You have to be able to depend on your training and go. The BG is probably not going to give you time to mull over the possible consequences of your action.

When it is all over, you have a responsibility to critique yourself, but don't fall into the trap of second-guessing. And take the advice of us armchair quarterbacks with a grain of salt.

Sounds to me like you made the right moves as circumstances unfolded. I have no doubt you would have made the correct choices had things played out differently.

Regards,

George

zephyp wrote:Granted that this scumbag was bigger and probably hyped on drugs if you shot him it IMO could potentially be persued as excessive use of force.

I think that has a lot to do with the area. In Fairfax that could very well be considered excessive force where in other cities or towns it may be considered cleansing the gene pool. Even though the other guy didn't have a weapon, if he was was bigger than you,that means he could have very well beaten you to death. But you stayed cool and it worked out.... This time.

Sounds like a tough situation and I'm glad it ended up not becoming a bigger problem than it was.

Excessive use of force is something that must certainly be considered, especially when dealing with someone who appears to be unarmed. It may have been enough of a deterrent in this instance to simply draw your sidearm if the situation escalated (i.e., if the BG had tried to grab or strike someone) and the BG would likely have left the scene in a hurry.

Had he drawn a weapon, then certainly, you would be justified in full-on defense.

That's my opinion anyway - and I am not a lawyer either.

Vahunter wrote:

zephyp wrote:Granted that this scumbag was bigger and probably hyped on drugs if you shot him it IMO could potentially be persued as excessive use of force.

I think that has a lot to do with the area. In Fairfax that could very well be considered excessive force where in other cities or towns it may be considered cleansing the gene pool. Even though the other guy didn't have a weapon, if he was was bigger than you,that means he could have very well beaten you to death. But you stayed cool and it worked out.... This time.

Yup, we up here in libbytard land and play with folks of a different ilk. The problem is some call themselves the good guys. I been looking at property around Keysville...some of it looks might fine.

zephyp wrote:I been looking at property around Keysville...some of it looks might fine.

That would be quite a commute, eh?

allingeneral wrote:

zephyp wrote:I been looking at property around Keysville...some of it looks might fine.

That would be quite a commute, eh?

Not unless I pick up lot stock and barrel. I could open a candle shop and bring part of NOVA to southern VA.

Just kidding Henry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jadedone4 wrote: did you mean that it would not/could not/may not hold in court as justifiable use of the firearm to protect?

That is exactly what I meant. I think that it may be hard to justify deadly force with the facts given, just my opinion.

zephyp wrote:

allingeneral wrote:

zephyp wrote:I been looking at property around Keysville...some of it looks might fine.

That would be quite a commute, eh?

Not unless I pick up lot stock and barrel. I could open a candle shop and bring part of NOVA to southern VA.

Just kidding Henry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That piece of land is for sale down the road from me. Would make a great range and hunting area. I've killed a few deer coming off that land. IF you move just lock the door and leave the idiots behind. I told Bill the same thing and he forgot to lock the door. Still getting more yankees from jersey.

Hi folks,

Thanks for all the input. From what I understand from my concealed handgun course, taught back in the day of Bruce J. (VCDL) at Shooter's Paradise, the use of a firearm is only justified in the preservation of your own life/well-being or that of a friend/loved-one. I understand that you only shoot to stop, but that being said, I think most of us that practice at the range usually try to put two shots downrange before assessing the situation (even though double taps are near impossible with a revolver unless you have a Mateba).

In the situation I never drew my gun, nor did I intimate that I was carrying, I merely let Jason decide how far the situation was going to get. He was definitely in a deranged state of mind and I definitely was concerned for my well-being and that of my friends. My only feeling of uncertainty was when Rochelle started to burp/hiccup because she was nervous and Jason made some comment about it. I thought for sure this might provoke Erwin (her husband), but he kept his cool - Erwin has since told me he plans to ask his wife if she will let him purchase a firearm.

msk7a wrote:From what I understand from my concealed handgun course, taught back in the day of Bruce J. (VCDL) at Shooter's Paradise, the use of a firearm is only justified in the preservation of your own life/well-being or that of a friend/loved-one.

True, but you may only use deadly force if there is an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury. i dont believe that a potential fistfight where you have 3 friends to back you up would meet that criteria.

ProShooter - I understand your points (100%) - that was why I asked for the clarification (thanks, appreciate the knowledge).

Here's my concern - and making an assumption here - most of the folks on this forum, me included (said most not all for your whipper-snappers), are over the "fist-fight" days - both mentally and physically. Mentally = I have no desire to "knuckle-up" with anyone, I am going straight CQB - which means any wall, or inanimate object becomes my asset, the days of unitard-wearing post-up boxing, or judo/TKO/JKD etc are over (both socialized and accepable means of self-defense); that isn't to say that it will not work, or that you defend in such manner (i.e. the OP's situation, step away, ignore, back-away from the guy, etc). Now, physically = (again speaking to the OP's situation), this guy was clearly "on something" and was quite "all there" - not a justification to use gun, but a part of the situation's assessment of options to remove threat. Removing threat can be passive/active (passive means backing away, allowing safe distance/time for the situation to de-escalate, etc; active means taking direct action to remove the threat - begins with the hand on gun - not drawn, but at ready... all the way up to pulling the trigger). At that point, gun drawn, seen by BG, the BG (IMHO) who continues to advance is determining that he/she intends harm, as the warning of force has been clearly established.

It is my humble belief that THAT particular instance/instant is where good/bad decisions are made. Once the weapon is drawn - if we view this in cadence (threat, gun-drawn, threat), I am sure that some zealous prosecutor could argue the GG was wrong. But I also make a/the distinction that once a firearm enters the situation, the charactor of the GG comes into question as well. If the GG's cadence is/has never been to use deadly force - which we all know is RARE based on statistics and personal encounters; then we also must make the assumption, as supported by fact, that the threat was real (as supported in the OP's situation by the three friends as witnesses to the event).

As a gun-owner and carrier, if me and my three friends are out and about (two males, two females) I am going to step to the BG, shielding them - not out of some sense of invincibility, but out of responsibility to the situation; if things turn south. For one, I need, as the armed person in the group, both the opportunity (and responsibilty) to de-escalate the situation to where the firearm is never intro'd; then also to make sure that the three in my party are not in the line of fire if all else fails.

Sorry for the rant... no coffee yet and it is colder than a witch's t!t outside and the GS wanted to chase foxes this AM instead of handling business rule #1 and #2....

Vahunter wrote: That piece of land is for sale down the road from me. Would make a great range and hunting area. I've killed a few deer coming off that land. IF you move just lock the door and leave the idiots behind. I told Bill the same thing and he forgot to lock the door. Still getting more yankees from jersey.

Not only will I lock the door but I'll also weld it shut. Im tired of all these yahoos, especially those with funny foreign last names.

indeed

Vahunter wrote: Still getting more yankees from jersey.

Something wrong with Yankees from Jersey?