Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

How about the *^&%&^ child of both?

Rock River is coming out with the LAR 47. A 7.62x39 AR that accepts AK mags.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm? ... ory_ID=558

That's just now coming out? I think it was at shot last year! Lol

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I know there have been variations with proprietary mags using the AR platform with the 7.62x39 caliber. They were plagued with cycling issues, and high wear trends due to velocity, and C.U.P. of the round.

If they have conquered that? AND allowed regular AK mags to be used? They may have a winner on their hands.

And only for the price of both an entry level AR and AK. I get that RRA makes quality guns but the round itself isn't going to break any records at range regardless of whether it comes out of an AR or any brand of AK. Its also been in pre-production/Keltec #'s for a few years now, at least according to your link. So you can wait for better ergonomics or for about the same price or a little less you could get a mod 1 from Armalite (same round and rifle but different mag) which actually exists.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?i ... 2e58014822

So, then. .. what, exactly, is the benefit of an AR that accepts AK mags?

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SHMIV wrote:So, then. .. what, exactly, is the benefit of an AR that accepts AK mags?

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Better ergonomics, no more AK tilt or large marching safety level, and ability to mount optics easier with perhaps a bit more accuracy, tighter tolerances and what not.

I wouldn't go near that thing. My AR has never had as much as a hiccup but I'm sure it will screw me long before my AK will.

I think there are 3 types of gun owners... AR fans, AK fans, and people who like both. Chances are all 3 will disapprove. LOL

Or wait for one of these

http://www.sigaddict.com/index.php/8-ne ... ular-rifle

I got a SIG 556R a couple years ago.

AR like in that it has a flat top with a rail. You can get it with a free float tube with a full length rail. It uses AK47 magazines and shoots 7.62X39 ammo, like an AK. It separates into upper and lower receiver halves, like an AR. It has ambidextrous safeties, more like an AR than an AK. It has a mag release like an AK (since it uses AK magazines). The bolt is very close to an AK design. It is gas piston operated, so it stays so very much cleaner inside than an AR15.

I've read that many people with ARs in 7.62X39 experience bolt and extractor issues. The AR bolt is just a little small for hogging out the inside for the diameter of the AK round and it can make it a little bit weaker. There are bolts and extractors made from special steels that are supposed to be more reliable.

The rifle at the link above is not a 556R. It is the new rifle most likely replacing the 556R and 556 (.223 caliber) rifles. Looks neat but I'll probably just keep my 556R.

As to 7.62X39 ammo being inaccurate - I'll bet its most likely the rifle, not the ammo. Some guys in Arizona took the 556R, with the right optics, out to some fairly long distances, 600 yds., with Lapua ammo. Many other people report very good accuracy out to 400 yds. with Wolf.

In two years, after several hundred rounds, my rifle has never malfunctioned.

M1A4ME wrote:Or wait for one of these

http://www.sigaddict.com/index.php/8-ne ... ular-rifle

I got a SIG 556R a couple years ago.

AR like in that it has a flat top with a rail. You can get it with a free float tube with a full length rail. It uses AK47 magazines and shoots 7.62X39 ammo, like an AK. It separates into upper and lower receiver halves, like an AR. It has ambidextrous safeties, more like an AR than an AK. It has a mag release like an AK (since it uses AK magazines). The bolt is very close to an AK design. It is gas piston operated, so it stays so very much cleaner inside than an AR15.

I've read that many people with ARs in 7.62X39 experience bolt and extractor issues. The AR bolt is just a little small for hogging out the inside for the diameter of the AK round and it can make it a little bit weaker. There are bolts and extractors made from special steels that are supposed to be more reliable.

The rifle at the link above is not a 556R. It is the new rifle most likely replacing the 556R and 556 (.223 caliber) rifles. Looks neat but I'll probably just keep my 556R.

As to 7.62X39 ammo being inaccurate - I'll bet its most likely the rifle, not the ammo. Some guys in Arizona took the 556R, with the right optics, out to some fairly long distances, 600 yds., with Lapua ammo. Many other people report very good accuracy out to 400 yds. with Wolf.

In two years, after several hundred rounds, my rifle has never malfunctioned.

Not inaccurate, though it may be relatively more so with a given rifle, just not built for going any great distance. Thus, the practical range makes an expensive rifle seem not as necessary/useful. No doubt it will go as far as you say but much of its steam is lost at 200-300 yards, at which range most any SKS with iron sites can keep up, its not very effective on non-paper targets.

This is all opinion from a guy fresh to AR's, so hopefully the seasoned guys don't flame me too hard for this, but...

To follow-up on what BertMacklin said, 7.62x39 and 5.56/.223 have about the same energy on impact at 300 yards as a 9mm handgun with a 5" to 7" barrel at point blank range.

IMHO, if your target is 300 yards out and is wearing body armor, outside of scaring the crap out of them and alerting them to the fact that they are taking fire... its not going to do much with the civilian ammo types.

Incendiary and penetrator ammo might help at 300 yards depending on the armor type. At 500-600 yards, the rounds are no good regardless. Out that far you need a .308 or a 30-06 to even start to be effective. Something longer and heavier would be better.

Again, this is all an "I think" based on what I have read and doing some basic math.

MarcSpaz wrote:This is all opinion from a guy fresh to AR's, so hopefully the seasoned guys don't flame me too hard for this, but...

To follow-up on what BertMacklin said, 7.62x39 and 5.56/.223 have about the same energy on impact at 300 yards as a 9mm handgun with a 5" to 7" barrel at point blank range.

IMHO, if your target is 300 yards out and is wearing body armor, outside of scaring the crap out of them and alerting them to the fact that they are taking fire... its not going to do much with the civilian ammo types.

Incendiary and penetrator ammo might help at 300 yards depending on the armor type. At 500-600 yards, the rounds are no good regardless. Out that far you need a .308 or a 30-06 to even start to be effective. Something longer and heavier would be better.

Again, this is all an "I think" based on what I have read and doing some basic math.

Marc, I'm not going to flame you at all...

I'll just point out that our military uses ammo that isn't as good as some of the ammo that we can get. A quality 5.56 round out of a quality barrel of 14.5 inches or more is not equal to a 9mm at point blank range. The 5.56 round is plenty effective at 500-600 yards. I've seen 5.56 rounds capably incapacitate at over 700 yards. I know more than one person that (with a quality rifle) can hit man sized targets with a 14.5 inch barreled M4 at 900 yards. Your typical PMC .223 55 gr will not help you achieve these things though. A 1:7 twist quality barrel using a good 62 gr round or better will be ideal. 5.56 Incendiary ammo past a certain distance is no more effective and penetrator ammo is nothing more than 62 gr M855 which is widely available to the general public.


Your information on the long .30 cal rounds is true. You'll have much greater effect on target using these rounds. If you want laser beam like trajectory with the ability to take out just about any living creature well past 1000 yards then I'd recommend a 300 win. mag. .338 lapua is great at this and against equipment as well, but it's a heavier load out and the trajectory isn't quite as flat at reasonable distances. Both kick something wicked if not braked though. The .308 or 30-06 are outstanding intermediate to long range rounds considering load out weight and availability.

Most people aren't going to be shooting past 300 yards with any kind of carbine. If you shoot past 500 yards, you're going to need consistent practice and quality gear.

Quality AKs are very accurate with decent ammo

Not all ARs are created equal (I could give examples, but I'll refrain as I don't want to hurt feelings and most folks here probably already know regardless of
what they believe)

Cool... thanks for the feedback. That actually helps me feel a bit better about some of my weapon and ammo choices. Also why I like to here from the folks who have been there. There is a huge difference between what I can read and study verses practical application in the field.

And yes... there are some hardcore fanboys out there. LOL

MarcSpaz wrote:Cool... thanks for the feedback. That actually helps me feel a bit better about some of my weapon and ammo choices. Also why I like to here from the folks who have been there. There is a huge difference between what I can read and study verses practical application in the field.

And yes... there are some hardcore fanboys out there. LOL

What do you typically feed your AR anyways?

Generally, I consider an AR-15 a precision instrument, and an AK-47 a volume instrument.

do you want to be able to hit a longer range target with one shot, or do you want to spray a bunch of bullets at your target?

NovaHunter wrote:Generally, I consider an AR-15 a precision instrument, and an AK-47 a volume instrument.

do you want to be able to hit a longer range target with one shot, or do you want to spray a bunch of bullets at your target?

A quality AK with decent ammo can be a precision instrument in the right hands. Your statement is correct though as if the same is true of the AR it's more effective on point targets. It's just that most AK using enemies have typically been employing yard built AKs and they aren't well trained to begin with. Occasionally you find a group with nice rifles and decently trained, but it's few and far between. This leads to the perception that AKs aren't very accurate.

BertMacklin wrote:What do you typically feed your AR anyways?

90% of the time I use Federal 5.56mm XM855CS 62 grain green tip or the PMC equivalent X-TAC 5.56K which is also a LAP.

The other 10% I will use Federal 5.56mm XM193 55 grain.

MarcSpaz wrote:

BertMacklin wrote:What do you typically feed your AR anyways?

90% of the time I use Federal 5.56mm XM855CS 62 grain green tip or the PMC equivalent X-TAC 5.56K which is also a LAP.

The other 10% I will use Federal 5.56mm XM193 55 grain.

The Military reject stuff (855 and 193) is part what gave the round such a shitty reputation, even though many stock up on it. So I think your earlier theory still holds true for most people because regardless of whatever top shelf rounds are capable of, people train with and stock tons of bulk, surplus, and ball ammunition.

I live in Va. Just south of Richmond. The only place I can see farther than 100 yds. is out on a road.

300 yds. if good for me.

I also don't hold with the idea, especially around here, but true for most places, is if someone is far enough away from me and not headed my way, why would I let them know where I was by shooting at them?

All the talk of 1000 yds., magnums, etc. is okay but in a SHTF situation, why would you be letting everyone for miles around know where you were by taking shots at someone so far away you might not even be able to tell who they were?

This ain't the middle east (where you can see forever) and the idea is to survive it.

And what the SIG has over the SKS is 30 round detachable magazines, a flat top rail for scope/red dot mounts and its a SIG.

Oh, and that folding stock means you can carry it around in a smaller package in a vehicle or hanging by the bed.

M1A4ME wrote:I live in Va. Just south of Richmond. The only place I can see farther than 100 yds. is out on a road.

300 yds. if good for me.

I also don't hold with the idea, especially around here, but true for most places, is if someone is far enough away from me and not headed my way, why would I let them know where I was by shooting at them?

All the talk of 1000 yds., magnums, etc. is okay but in a SHTF situation, why would you be letting everyone for miles around know where you were by taking shots at someone so far away you might not even be able to tell who they were?

This ain't the middle east (where you can see forever) and the idea is to survive it.

And what the SIG has over the SKS is 30 round detachable magazines, a flat top rail for scope/red dot mounts and its a SIG.

Oh, and that folding stock means you can carry it around in a smaller package in a vehicle or hanging by the bed.

True for most of Virginia, and there is something unethical about dropping people at 1000 yards without knowing their much of a threat SHTF or no.
However, don't doubt the SKS so hastily as it takes detachable mags, can be converted to a folding stock or bull pup with drop in kits, and all for still less than a sig.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... 337311#PIC

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... 606804#PIC